Flat pack- improvised

[LongWayToFall 0]

Hello,
A rigger at my dropzone showed me a way to pack my PD210 9 cell, similar to a regular flat pack. I jumped it a couple times with a propack, and found the openings to be quite brisk, to the point of worrying about harder openings being painful. This new method has given me very nice openings, and I am convinced that I will continue to pack in this way. However, I cannot find anything online specific to this method, and have been practicing at home but without the rigger there to oversee me, I am concerned with how accurate I am being with the packjob. I realize the best idea would be to go back to the dz and have him continue to show me, but if I can find pictures or something online it would be most helpful in not annoying him excessively. Here is how the packjob goes: Start like a normal flat pack, canopy on it's side, flake and roll the nose, but instead of putting the B lines onto the A lines, you put the As onto the Bs with the rolled nose down. Then Cs onto the As, and Ds onto the Cs. Then flake out the tail on top with the center of the tail ending up in the middle, and tail going around the packjob to size it up for the bag. You don't flake out the material between the lines except for the tail and a couple stabilizers at the bottom that have the slider stops on them. This sort of "sandwiches" the nose between folds, and I believe that is why it opens so nice. So, if anybody is familiar with this style of pack, please let me know, I could not find any info online about it. The rigger who showed me is a very experienced long time master rigger, so I trust his judgement in it being a safe packjob. Thanks!
Micah

[Gene03 0]

Have you tried the base forum or maybe strong enterprises web site, tandem packing?
Your description sounds like a combination roll/pro-pack or something????
Please keep us or me via PM informed as I would like to know more.
Thanks in advance.

“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)

[diablopilot 2]

Sounds a lot like how I pack a reserve or base rig. Some have called it a "ProStack"

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Well the chute is never over your shoulder, so it isn't a pro pack (my understanding of the pro/psycho and pro/flat is that you flake it on the shoulder and then it goes to the ground for the rest) and the material is never fully flaked out, between the line groups all of the material goes one way or the other. (well not really, as you set the next line group down, you sorta S fold it). Everything I have seen on flat packing such as a reserve, has you flaking the material to the outsides and the lines sit directly on top of each other, exactly the same as a pro pack ends up looking like. I might be at the dz in the next week or something, once I get there I will give the rigger a handful of beers and have him keep showing me until I get it down perfect, then I will let you guys know exactly how it goes, with pictures if wanted. It opens so sweet! He said the PD 9cells are known for opening fairly abruptly.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Any accuracy jumper can teach you how to flat-pack.

[jakee 1,255]

Quote

Sounds a lot like how I pack a reserve or base rig. Some have called it a "ProStack"

With the As and the nose sandwiched between the Bs and Cs? Doesn't sound like the pro-stack I know...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[dgw 8]

That is the exact way I learned to flat pack. Always seemed to work okay....

[LongWayToFall 0]

When you lay your material down between line groups, do you always S fold a certain way/direction? or no S fold and just put the material to one side?

[phoenixlpr 0]

???
Where?

Lines go in the middle.

[matthewcline 0]

We used to call this the "Raff Roll" on the Silver Wings and Screaming Eagles. It was a mod of the reserve pack job and it tends to keep the nose closed till the canopy has slowed you down dramatically.

DO NOT stuff the nose with this pack job. I learned the tough way and had many a way to long a snivel and watched many get cut away.

If your rolling the nose either roll it all together or use the PD/UPT old style tandem roll andthe two rolls stay seperate.

A draw back is that if your not solid on the slider placement your going to burn it up with the lines pretty fast.

As you have noticed, with this pack job, the lines twist above the slider, if you ever find the twist below the slider STOP! Yuo have a step through or other issue to fix.

Have fun!
Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

However, I cannot find anything online specific to this method, and have been practicing at home but without the rigger there to oversee me, I am concerned with how accurate I am being with the packjob.

There are some references out there on flat packing but many of them are old and most people don't know they even exist since most only learn to pro pack now a days. Let me do some digging and see what I can find, no promises, I don't think any good ones are online. With that said, your description of the pack job sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on it. However, just like you wouldn't learn how to do surgery on yourself from an online forum, don't rely on learning to fold your canopy from an online forum.

The only thing I didn't see in your description is the setting of the brakes. Make sure you do that BEFORE you flake the tail. After you flake the tail, pull the slider all the way up to the end of the canopy lines. Ensure that the grommets(all of them) stay as close to the parachute as possible( to include during the packing). In a study on hard openings, it was found that for every inch the slider is away from the stops 1G of additional force is felt by the jumper. After your slider is pulled up and situated, count your lines and ensure they are all accounted for and in the center of the pack job. Return to the slider, clear your stabilizers and fold around the slider and start your first fold. Pull the tail down and squid it around the entire canopy.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[saly 0]

If I get a chace I will dig around for my old ( circa 1988) notes for packing courses.

On older F111 canopies and even earlier PD type canopies a flat pack was great. There were a number of types.

The first is what was called the conventional pack which was the flat packed reserve pack adjusted to open slower. Nose up and between B on A, C on B, D on C, breaks stowed, slider up as Scott said, Lines cleared and tail flaked and center cell dressed around.

Then the roll pack which is pretty much what the OP described.

Then there were a number of variation of the two.

---------------------------------------------
If you don't have wings you will never fly

[councilman24 36]

PD nine cells open the way parachutes are supposed to. Only newbies think it's abrupt.

A pro pack can be done on the ground. The older Northern lite manual at http://www.parachutemanuals.com/jos/file/Download/Containers/Velocity-Sports/NL3_2Pin_Manual/ describes it. I did this for many years.

I'm still looking for a standard flat pack manual. This http://www.parachutemanuals.com/jos/file/Download/Reserves/North-American/NAA-Eagle11.03.03/ is pretty close but still isn't quite the same as the old paraflite manual. The firefly manual here http://www.parachutemanuals.com/jos/file/Download/Reserves/Django/Firefly-Reserve/ is essentially it but the first page of the description is missing. See the drawings at the end.

But what you described is a little different. We used to something we called a flop pack.

A's folded back on B's, D's onto C's, and then one half on the other. Also used to roll nose back to B's and s fold rest next to it. Lots of variations on a them.

But, the ones that are B's on A's, C's on B's, and D's on C's split and flake the tail are just as "proper" an orientation as a PRO pack (sometimes know as Proper Ramair Orientation) Only difference is that material isn't flaked to each side. Both are equivalent to standing the canopy on it's nose, Colapsing side to side and then down onto the floor.

Find an old fart, not necessarily a rigger, and certainly not a new rigger, and you'll learn all sorts of variations.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[pilotdave 0]

So on the topic of packing PD 9-cells... Any advice on pro packing for softer openings? I have a 9-cell in my backup rig (my first canopy). It sat in a closet for about 4 years when I got a new rig, but now I'm jumping it fairly regularly for back-to-back loads when shooting 4-way video.

When I bought the rig years ago, I was taught to roll the nose and pull the slider all the way out the nose instead of quartering it. I have no choice but to have packers pack it for me (since I tend to use it on back-to-back-to-back loads). What are the best tips for softer openings? The camera helmet really magnifies the openings. They aren't HARD, just really brisk. I just tell packers to roll the nose... but I've forgotten to mention it before and a non-rolled nose doesn't seem to make much difference.

Dave

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

So on the topic of packing PD 9-cells... Any advice on pro packing for softer openings?

Which PD model of canopy are you jumping? Generally speaking, gently pushing the entire nose back into the pack job and ensuring that the slider is quartered and that the portion of the slider closest to you is in front of the nose tends to work the best. A larger slider is also another solution to softening the openings if it is determined that it isn't the method of packing causing the brisk openings.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[pilotdave 0]

PD 9-cell 150. As in the old PD 9-Cell "F111" canopy.

Dave

[saly 0]

I am looking for my old Paraflight manuals for Cruiselite and swift reserves.

Remember the saying from the patch on the right riser..."Paraflight makes it right" when hooking a canopy up.

Call it a trip down memory lane?

Even had Stratostar manuals!!!

I lent them out to a candidate rigger years back, not sure If I got them back.

---------------------------------------------
If you don't have wings you will never fly

[councilman24 36]

I certainly have all the paraflite reserve manuals, including the safety star, swifts, orion, cirrus, etc. But not in electronic form. And I don't have access to a self feeding scanner at the moment. PM to talk about getting you a copy some way. Not sure I have a strato star manual.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

Once again, I consider them the way a parachute should open, not these streamers that clear like a spectre. But understand wanting it softer for a camera. So do I.

I think your SOL if you have to use packers. My guess is that most of them never jumped (if jumpers) these canopies and don't have a clue. And I'm not sure anything with a pro pack will help reliably. We used the 'flop' pack to slow down our student Vulcans after they broke a jumpmaster ribs. But no packer is going to do that pack job.

I've never taken the time to play around with sliders. I've always been willing to live with the "positive" openings, including on my original sabre 170. So I can't help you there.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[LongWayToFall 0]

I have been rolling the nose on top, ie not underneath the pack job, in one piece, up until the A lines start to rotate a bit. the Bs at this point are pretty close, maybe only 1-1.5 feet away, and go right on top of the As. I did not think it is possible to "stuff" the nose unless it was on your shoulder? maybe as you are sizing it up for the bag, you could stuff the material back up the center as it goes under for the same effect? whatever the case, I am not stuffing, just making the material meet in the center under the pack as I move my way up to size the thing. The slider, at least for me, is a bit more tricky than on a pro pack. It seems like the slider stops are on top of each other in a weird way that makes it hard to keep the slider against them. Yes, I have definitely noticed the twist above the slider! It looks strange. But hey, it works! Thanks!

[LongWayToFall 0]

Thanks for mentioning the brakes. I have been setting them before the pack, but have seen in an online description of a reserve pack that they do it right before flaking the tail. Does it matter which way you do it? I learned pro-packing first, so it would be easier for me to make it my very first item to attend to.
I certainly don't plan on packing in this way and jumping it without consulting the rigger who taught me the method, but if I find out a way that works for some people and can practice it more at my house, it will help me out and speed things up a bit.

[LongWayToFall 0]

That is allot of info! Some of the pictures are hard to see though. I was researching flat packing after I came home from the dz after learning the method I was taught, and came across this:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Reserve_manual.pdf

In it, they flake the material between the line groups to the outside, essentially making exactly what a pro-pack is. I was under the impression if they had not done this, it would not be a pro pack? You are saying that even if the material is left to one side or the other, the fact that the nose is pointing towards the bottom of the deployment bag and the tail is on top makes it a pro pack? I guess I am confused a bit with the different styles here.

P.S. I love firm openings, before I bought this canopy I was jumping a Sabre2 210, and it had brisk openings as well. I just haven't jumped this canopy enough times to become comfortable with it, the first couple pro pack openings I had were certainly the upper limit with how fast I want them, it was fully open in about 1 second after reaching line stretch, in about 500ft from pitch. If i knew for a fact that this is the fastest it would open, I would be fine with it, but the thought of any faster makes me scared!!!

[councilman24 36]

You can flake the material out to each side starting with the canopy on the floor as you move the lines over. Creating a propack on the ground. If you don't split the fabric out your doing a "paraflite" or stack, or flat pack. The northern lite manual is doing the ground pro pack. The firefly is doing a stack pack. But I always did it withthe lines in the middle and the fabric s folded across the middle. This takes some wrist action and a little practice.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Thanks for mentioning the brakes. I have been setting them before the pack, but have seen in an online description of a reserve pack that they do it right before flaking the tail. Does it matter which way you do it

Depends on who you ask. If you learned a specific way of doing it, then do it that way, in the order that you were taught. The way I learned and still do it is as I described it to you. Depending on the canopy, you may have a hard time flaking the canopy out symmetrically if the brakes are already set. If the canopy you are flat packing has an elliptical taper to it, stacking the cells up one on top of another evenly will be next to impossible as each one will be progressively offset from the previous one. You can still flat pack the canopy, just don't beat yourself up trying to get the cells to lay exactly on top of each other.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

I did not think it is possible to "stuff" the nose unless it was on your shoulder?

You can take the first 4 cells of the nose once it is flaked out and roll them inwards and stuff them into the closest side of the nose of the 5th cell. Roll the remaining 4 bottom cells towards the 5th cell and stuff them into the remaining side of the 5th cell that is still open. Once that is done, fold the canopy line sets in which ever manner you prefer.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING