I'm new...mal procedure question...

[smokeypete 0]

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Along the lines of JP's suggestion regarding the best solution is "prevention."

Brian Germain has the following: The Secret to Pilot Chute Packing

Since shown this I do it every time... and have amazed that it's not more common practice. Apart from potentially preventing a horseshoe, I like how it effectively can't be done with an uncocked PC (and so can also prevent a PC in tow).

Does anyone know of a potential downside?

[slj678 0]

I know this is probably a dumb question and sorry to get off topic, but why does it activate at 750 instead of maybe 1000 or 1200?

"I didn't know they gave out rings at the holocaust"

[labrys 0]

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I know this is probably a dumb question and sorry to get off topic, but why does it activate at 750 instead of maybe 1000 or 1200?

My understanding from other threads, and in a nutshell, is that if you deploy for yourself at 1000 feet or 1200 feet you are likely to survive. The AAD isn't designed to save you in a situation like that. It's designed to pull you out of the fire without interfering with your ability to save yourself.

Owned by Remi #?

[AlRedler 0]

The other option is to use a pull out rig, and minimise the risk of a horseshoe mal. In the UK, students aren't allowed to though.

[brettski74 0]

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why does it activate at 750 instead of maybe 1000 or 1200?

The AAD should only fire when you've run out of time and options. It doesn't know if you're clearing a pilot chute from you burble, or having to manually release a baglock. If it were to activate while you were dealing with such a situation, it could very well make things worse. The extra couple of seconds between 1200 and 750 feet could be the difference between your reserve deploying into a baglock that hasn't released yet or a reserve deploying into clear air. The AAD is a backup device and should only activate once you're out of time and there are no other options. If you're ready for your reserve, pull your reserve handle. You have the information to make such a call. Your AAD does not.

[brettski74 0]

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No body has yet mentioned altitude awareness.
How about checking your altitude while your trying to get the mess off you?

I was curious about this comment and wondered if you could be more specific about what you're suggesting here.

During a high speed malfunction, I'm not going to be looking at my altimeter. I know where I was for deployment and that I'm now lower than that. There's precious little altitude left, and therefore due to the high speed, precious little time. Time spent looking at my altimeter is time I could have spent better dealing with the problem.

A low speed malfunction is a different story, but we're talking about horseshoes, which are high speed malfunctions.

[popsjumper 2]

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No body has yet mentioned altitude awareness.
How about checking your altitude while your trying to get the mess off you?

I was curious about this comment and wondered if you could be more specific about what you're suggesting here.

During a high speed malfunction, I'm not going to be looking at my altimeter. I know where I was for deployment and that I'm now lower than that. There's precious little altitude left, and therefore due to the high speed, precious little time. Time spent looking at my altimeter is time I could have spent better dealing with the problem.

A low speed malfunction is a different story, but we're talking about horseshoes, which are high speed malfunctions.

I'm worried now. You say you will NOT be checking your altitude. Unless you are wrapped up in a canopy like a meat burrito, you can check your altitude during your fix process easily enough. Altitude awareness should have been stressed and stressed and stressed some more in your training. There is only one thing more important...pull.

Just as an aside, not all horshoe mals are high-speed.

Anytime you are trying to fix something, regardless of what it is, what's going to tell you how long you can mess with it? Altitude. Not time. Time is relative. Altitude is not.

You have a Decision Altitude. It has nothing to do with time.

Your adrenaline levels are going to go up. You may very well experience time distortion. Your perception of time changes. Your loss of altitude is unaffected by all that. Which will more reliable, your brain or your altimeter?

I'm hesitant to mention this due to the experience level of some of the thread viewers but, one thing that may help you is to train your eyes for altitude. Experienced jumpers, having trained their eyes, will be more able to determine altitude loss by simply looking at the ground. Much, much more so than youngsters...but then, what's the difference of looking at the ground vs looking at your alti. I'll tell you...your eyes can be more easliy fooled than your alti...especially so in times of high stress. Taking your viewpoint into account, checking your altimeter may be more reliable way of determining altitude.

This business about "try once, try twice" could very well kill you. If you are not checking, you have no clue as to how much altitude you burned between the time you noticed the problem and the time your started your first attempt. How much did you burn on the first attempt? How much on the second? Oooops too late...splat.

So, personally, I highly recommend that you check your altitude, and stay aware of it, any time you are trying to fix canopy or deployment problems. Let's hope you make the final decision on what to do before it's too late to do anything at all.

I hope that helps.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[airdvr 197]

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The other option is to use a pull out rig, and minimise the risk of a horseshoe mal. In the UK, students aren't allowed to though.

I was a firm believer that I didn't want a PC and a hook pin deploying my main for me. I wanted to open my own container and I thought a pull out was best. 2 of my mals were totals on a pull-out racer. It's not a nice feeling to reach back and not find your pud where you expect it to be. This was back in the day when we were deploying at 2 grand so there wasn't a whole lot of time to spend figuring out where it was.

I have to agree with the 'break the chain of events' scenario. Horeshoes should be a REALLY rare occurance these days. The gear has been engineered to avoid that if it's used correctly. Always good to have a plan though.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[popsjumper 2]

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The other option is to use a pull out rig, and minimise the risk of a horseshoe mal. In the UK, students aren't allowed to though.

I'm curious as to how a pull-out system is going to minimise the risk of a horsehoe malfunction.
???

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dragon2 0]

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The other option is to use a pull out rig, and minimise the risk of a horseshoe mal. In the UK, students aren't allowed to though.

I'm curious as to how a pull-out system is going to minimise the risk of a horsehoe malfunction.
???

The problem of the main pin becoming dislodged and so cause an open container but a pilotchute still in the pocket cannot occur with a pullout, however of course other types of horseshoe malfunctions like getting the bridle around a limb/neck/helmet and the like are still possible.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[DanG 1]

I'm not sure I agree 100%.

If there is only one response to a given situation (for instance a bag lock) checking the altimeter before or during EP's is a waste of time. If the only posssible thing you can do is cut away and pull your reserve, then knowing what altitude you are at gives no useful information. Get to work.

For a horseshoe, I agree that you will want to remain altitude aware if your procedures include attempts to fix the horseshoe by removing the extra attachment point (PC, bridle, whatever). Once you've decided to give up and go red then silver, altitude awareness is no longer that important. Once the decision has been made, your eyes should be on your handles and you mind should be on getting them both pulled quickly.

If you are in a situation where there is a decision tree based on altitude, I absolutely think that maintaining altitude awareness is key. Experienced jumpers may be able to rely more on their total situational awareness, including ground references, but as you say, it is easy for even highly experienced folks to lose track of where they are in an emergency.

This all points to the fact that emergency procedures are not simple. There are a lot of variables, and the only way to deal with complexity is through repetitive training. EP's are also a perishable skill, so up jumpers need to get in the hanging harness often, too. And don't just drill the simple things. You'd be suprised how easy it is to flumox an experienced jumper with a horseshoe or two-out in the hanging harness. Better to figure out, and drill, your response on the ground than when screaming though 1000ft.

- Dan G

[popsjumper 2]

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I'm not sure I agree 100%.

If there is only one response to a given situation (for instance a bag lock) checking the altimeter before or during EP's is a waste of time. If the only posssible thing you can do is cut away and pull your reserve, then knowing what altitude you are at gives no useful information. Get to work.

Well, obviously, Dan. Some mals are no-brainers...get it done.

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For a horseshoe, I agree that you will want to remain altitude aware if your procedures include attempts to fix the horseshoe by removing the extra attachment point (PC, bridle, whatever). Once you've decided to give up and go red then silver, altitude awareness is no longer that important. Once the decision has been made, your eyes should be on your handles and you mind should be on getting them both pulled quickly.

Yes. My comment was directed solely at horshoe mals. The comment only dealt with trying to "fix" the situation. Good of you to carry it on out to include the cutaway process after the decision is made.

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If you are in a situation where there is a decision tree based on altitude, I absolutely think that maintaining altitude awareness is key. Experienced jumpers may be able to rely more on their total situational awareness, including ground references, but as you say, it is easy for even highly experienced folks to lose track of where they are in an emergency.

This all points to the fact that emergency procedures are not simple. There are a lot of variables, and the only way to deal with complexity is through repetitive training. EP's are also a perishable skill, so up jumpers need to get in the hanging harness often, too. And don't just drill the simple things. You'd be suprised how easy it is to flumox an experienced jumper with a horseshoe or two-out in the hanging harness. Better to figure out, and drill, your response on the ground than when screaming though 1000ft.

And all that applies across the board. Good stuff to highlight in this thread.

As an aside, I personally am not surprised at how easily "experienced" jumpers can be "flumoxed"....seen it too many times. To me, it says, "insufficient training/drilling".

Check out your DZ safety Day. Compare the number of youngsters doing EP reviews and training harness drills vs the number of "experienced".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239