Whatever happened to paying your dues in skydiving?

[Sky15 0]

Just a minor vent about politics in skydiving...don't read on if ya don't want to.. I'm not much of a poster mostly lurk.

When I started jumping 15 years ago, things were very different. I know politics were in the sport then, but nothing like today. Back then, you earned your slot on big ways and special events with time in the sport plus proven skills, at least where I jumped. You also usually moved up in formation size gradually, which is much better for safety and performance in general. No big deal if you go from 20 to 40 to 60 ways on up, rather than going from 20 ways to 100+ ways as peole do now.

The world teams from the last few years are an example, pretty shocking that people with just a few years in the sport, and others with just more than a few hundred jumps are doing 300-400 ways. I have no jealousy about it, had my fun with big ways and record jumps and then made other life choices. I am just surprised and a little disheartened at the way things work now. People that "know somebody" can get on big ways, etc. even if they aren't very good flyers or lack experience. Whatever happened to the balance of skill and experience with a lot less politics being the determining factors?

I also think it's not wise from a safety standpoint to put a person with low experience on super big formations. But it usually all works out I guess.

Guess that is life, all things change with or without my approval.

[funks 1]

Evolution. Shit changes.

[Remster 24]

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I also think it's not wise from a safety standpoint to put a person with low experience on super big formations.

Some of them have more 100 ways experience then many people with jump numbers in the 1000s. Its not just who you know, but also where you go and what events you do.

If instead of getting to 500 jumps by doing boogies, fun jumps, etc... you dedicate yourself to proper training,m 4way, and big way camps and events, you will probably have the skillset needed, and know the people you need to know.

I actually think its easier now to get into big formations. Go to some big way camps (open to most who meet a basic safety criteria), get known, prove yourself, and you will be invited to bigger stuff.

Remster

[SkiD_PL8 0]

I heard it was all a conspiracy. 500 jumps is the new 1500 jumps.

Greenie in training.

[wmw999 2,148]

Me, I miss the days when 200 jumps was quite experienced. Really.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skybytch 259]

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People that "know somebody" can get on big ways, etc. even if they aren't very good flyers or lack experience.

I disagree with that. I worked for a couple well known big way organizers for 8 years. They liked me. They knew I wanted to be on big ways.

If what you are saying is true I'd have gotten on a big way the first time I asked, when I wasn't real current and had never been on anything bigger than a 30 way. But before they let me on one of their big ways I first had to prove myself. I had to show them that I was current and show them that I'd been honing my skills on much smaller skydives.

The "low timers" you see on World Team have gotten coaching, they've done lots of tunnel time, they compete in 4 way, they attend big way camps and they jump their butts off every weekend. Some of them are "naturals" but all of them have put a lot of time, effort and money into reaching their goal of being on big ways.

I'd bet that all of those on World Team with fewer jumps than I have are far better belly fliers than I am. I don't think they'd be there if they weren't.

[gmanpilot 0]

I don't care what the jump numbers are as long as they have the skills and are safe in the air. What I object to is seeing those who do have the skills and experience, (but can't afford to subsidize those who are jumping for free) and not be able to participate because of $$. With the jump prices, time off work, and travel expenses, it would cost me hundreds of bucks per jump. Getting a world record was fun and everything, but it's not that fun.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[rehmwa 2]

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What I object to is seeing those who do have the skills and experience, (but can't afford to subsidize those who are jumping for free) and not be able to participate because of $$.

What does this mean? Do some participants subsidize other WT members? Or do you think the entire skydiving community should subsidize the overall efforts, or just those with less income?....

(My read is the first one - that the cost to participate is unfairly elevated to support a core group that don't pay the same as the rest of the WT or at all.....is that right? I wouldn't know, I am interested in how this stuff works. If I'm right, then how many participants of, say the last 357 way, got a reduced cost or freebie at the expense of the rest of the WT participants.....)

I'm not saying if I think it's fair or not, just want to understand how it all adds up before deciding. Kind of like the idea of 'pitching in' for a camera guy but then having him turn around and charge everybody for a copy of the video, etc. It could apply to the organizers, the non-jumping support staff, etc..... I could see many sides to the argument of how much to kick in vs what's the return on that investment.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Sky15 0]

True we didn't have tunnel time back then, etc., but I think I will always believe that there is something important about time in the sport as well, and the experience of having a lot of time in the sky, a fair amount of smaller or "medium" size loads before really big ones, etc. I've seen it work fine but it's still shocking to me to see someone go from say a 20 way to a 100 way and they also have less than a few hundred jumps and only local small experience.

I agree that many with fewer jumps are much better fliers, of course we all know that and see it all the time. I have also seen some people with a lot of time in the sport and plenty of jumps that still don't fly that great as well.

Also it is true there are some very good and fair organizers out there, but it does still have a much different feel today, more like the bottom line is just about all politics and of course money. And that is the political advantage of those that travel, they have the money/time to do it and make those contacts.

I'm thrilled when new records are set and even more thrilled when there are no serious incidents in the process, just surprised to see some low numbers/time in sport on major big ways.

[skybytch 259]

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And that is the political advantage of those that travel, they have the money/time to do it and make those contacts.

Those with fat wallets have always had the advantage in this sport. That will never change.

[gmanpilot 0]

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My read is the first one - that the cost to participate is unfairly elevated to support a core group that don't pay the same as the rest of the WT or at all.....is that right?

Yep. There have always been free slots on big ways for certain organizers, sponsors, and skydiving celebs, and I don't have a problem with that. I'm going to pass, however, when asked to pay for my slot and half of someone elses. I don't blame the jumpers though, it's free jumps on a record attempt!

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[flyangel2 2]

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People that "know somebody" can get on big ways, etc. even if they aren't very good flyers or lack experience.

If they are not good enough, they will get cut. When a World Record is out to be built, everyone has to perform, and if you mess up, you're asked to sit down. No politics is going to keep a bad skydiver on a World Record attempt.

gmanpilot wrote:

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I don't care what the jump numbers are as long as they have the skills and are safe in the air. What I object to is seeing those who do have the skills and experience, (but can't afford to subsidize those who are jumping for free) and not be able to participate because of $$. With the jump prices, time off work, and travel expenses, it would cost me hundreds of bucks per jump. Getting a world record was fun and everything, but it's not that fun.

Guess it's where you priorities lie. I'm not rich, I've saved for months and months to be able to attend World Record attempts and records. I love the thrill of getting the record.

As for some of the slots being picked up by me, well I'm not sure who all gets their slots covered on all the events, but most times it's the organizer of the event and the people that help him/her put it together. There is a lot of work that goes into putting a big way event together.

IMO, I don't mind covering the cost of those people that help put on the event. It's their job, why shouldn't they get paid for their work?

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey