I cant believe this needs to be said but.......

[kirrz 0]

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There's accepting it intellectually and then there's accepting it emotionally. I don't think you understand the emotional till it happens. Then you figure out if it's acceptable to you.

That's so true. I'm one of those low-time skydivers that has been head-fucked by the weekend. I'm so confused. I have been told that if I stay in the sport, I will know people that die and that I could die. I've accepted the risk but when it actually happens, it's so different. I'm scared of dying. I'm scared of being paralyzed. I'm so scared of having someone I know die. I made peace with this fear by thinking that the universe unfolds exactly as it should, if something happens - that was because it was meant to. But now I'm confused. If someone dies jumping, is it because they were meant to or because they were jumping?

I always thought (on a personal level) that I will be prepared to deal with every problem that may occur that I am able to fix. What scared me was having a double mal in a case where there was nothing in my control to do. I accepted that risk as my unlucky day. Now I realize that's not true. I can do everything right and shit can still happen.

When I started, I looked at all those statistics comparing skydiving to other sports and placated myself. But now I realize that statistics come from somewhere and the people that are going to be a base for these can be my friends or me. I guess I'm feeling like the more I become a part of the community, the less impersonal the incidents are going to be. After all, we're not that big of a community and it's pretty fucking hard not to become like family.

I'm so torn between my love of the sky and my fear of death to those I love. I'm not going to quit, I can't. I love it too much. I also think that if I did and got hit by a bus then I would have wasted my life.

As quoted, I had accepted the risks intellectually but I never factored in the emotional component. And that's really fucking with me. I dated a BASE jumper once who told me that after a while, he just became sort of hard and indifferent whilst dealing with death. That's not what I want to become. I want people to touch my life.

This weekend has changed my perspective because I guess I realized that you never know who it's going to happen to. You can be the best but the best might not be good enough. I guess the reason a lot of low time jumpers have been sending you PMs (dgskydive) is because we had it all worked out in our heads but when it is actually close to home for the first time, we realized that we really weren't prepared at all.

[dgskydive 0]

You are the type of jumper I wanted to reach with this post.

I am glad you are thinking about now.

I am glad you love the sport and understand what it means.

This sport is about life and love, it really is. We love life and try to live it like it is a gift not a right.

Make the decision that is right for you.

I am just tired of people glossing over the hard facts about this sport that takes over our lives in so many ways.

Dom

[niolosoiale 0]

Think of it this way.

Clearly, you want to skydive. I don't know how bad, but apparently bad enough to do it 18 times. You also want it enough to wonder if you can handle the emotional impact of losing friends to the sport or being injured. It's clearly important to you.

At this point, none of your close friends have went in. I assume you haven't been injured in a devastating manner. You are where thousands of people have already been.

Here's what I offer. In life, you rarely benefit from growing bitter, numb, or indifferent to things as significant as death. Death and life require respect. You should respect your life and live it as you would want to live it, while simultaneously respecting the fact that you could die on any given day. You shouldn't let the fear of something which is inevitable and relatively uncontrollable, run your life. YOU run YOUR life. Don't let a fear of death keep you from doing the things you deserve to give yourself.

So long as you respect life and respect death, both will have meaning and yield positive effects. I know death is never fun or happy, but it's necessary and inevitable. So focus on appreciating and living life. Cope with death as it comes, don't worry about death, just respect it. It's the most you can do

It's not about the stats. They can help you measure and justify risk, but you don't skydive because it's less dangerous than something else. You skydive because you want to. I think you want to. It looks like you want to. So don't let the fear of anyone's death or injury stop you, if it's what you want. Know that just because you stop skydiving, doesn't mean people will stop dying or getting hurt. So if you want to persist, be accepting of the nature of the beast. Respect the beast. And remember that you shouldn't waste life running away from death.

[xenaswampjumper 0]

I remember you telling me this in Sebastin.....it is so true and thanks again for the reminder.....hope you are ok given the circumstances.....give the GF a squeeze too.....sorry for your's and Jean's loss as well as everyone else that knew her.

Hugs to both of you!!!! and everyone else!!!

till later have fun & love each other seeya mb65johnny gates....
In skydiving, the only thing that stops you is the ground..............
PMS# 472 Muff #3863 TPM#95

[Flying-Wench 0]

thankyou for this thread.. it is harsh.. but does need to be said, understood and accepted in some way or other.

im new to this sport. Im one of those nervous students people try not to talk about death around, one of those students the instructors keep telling to "relax".

I encourage the talk, and in fact before my first student jump, i read the fatality files here on dz.com as im a firm believer that people must go into things fully informed. It is all too easy to sugar coat things. Reality = learning.

I have also read most of the posts from this weekends tragedies, i share in this loss and pain.

Like many other students here, ive been through the "should i/shouldnt i". I have decided that i will continue.

It is a dangerous sport (as are many others) and for some of us, thats why we love it. I love a challenge, i love facing my fears and doing it anyway, stretching my comfort zone and just having some fun. And for personal health reasons, I love feeling free and alive, for me that is what it is about. I am going to live my life to the fullest, regardless of what may happen.

Ive accepted that something may happen to me in this sport, the same way that i have accepted that my health might fail me because i lived on the edge a little too much.

So... im just going to enjoy the time i have now, and live it up doing the things i love with those i love.. but always rememebring those that passed before us..

[Elisha 1]

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This is the best I can do:

Based on the number of licensed drivers in the United States in 2005 and the reported number of car-accident related deaths.

Vs.

Number of USPA members and the reported # of skydiver deaths in 2005.

Both assume the same thing: Not every licensed driver drives. Not every USPA member jumps. There's not really a way ( at least, in a few minutes time) to do a completely accurate comparison, but by my calculations, the percentages are the same with .001 percent chance more skydiving.



I stand by what I said--admiting the car analogy was not the best.

(caveat - I'm over 50 posts behind in this thread in case someone already said this.)

While you may be correct from a P(death) in Skydiving < P(death driving), there is just no equating of trying to explain away the danger of skydiving. You simply can not call a sport in which you willing exit an aircraft and accelerate to 100+ mph with gravity and use a bunch of nylon fabric and string to allow you to descend "safe". While the risks can be mitigated with proper training, execution, equipment, the risks are REAL and VERY severe and with a huge random component (e.g. opening/deployment among others).

I didn't know Shannon that well, but I had at least met both Shannon and Bob and the loss of Shannon is certainly not something I'm going to forget soon. She was a very genuine and joyful person. Dom's post is appropriate and really hits home.

[missg8tordivr 0]

We talked about this the other night, but I want to say it on here.....

I know that I have the risk of dying in this sport if something goes wrong and I fail to make the right decisions. Errors and bad judgment can compound into a potentially deadly situation. When I jump....I can accept that.

But until now I didn't really think about "what if" something goes wrong with someone I know, or even really care about, or love.....that hit me yesterday, in full force....and it hurt!! I though all night and all day about the fact that I am not sure that I can handle that....

How do you measure if that is a risk that you are willing to take? The people that I have met in skydiving are some of the best people I have met in my life...some that I will always remember, and always be friends with. We share that same desire and thrill of life...you all know what I speak of...

When I am up there, I forget all my worries. It is an escape for me, from the everyday hustle of my ordinary world. I feel free, on the edge, most of all, it makes me realize that life isn't just about going to work everyday...it is about enjoying life and sharing that with the people that you care about and love to do the same things.

There in lies the problem. The amount of risk with this sport is very high....accidents will happen, and I will unfortunatly loose people that are close to me That is something that I have to accept...but it is also something that I can TRY to help and prevent (with the understanding that nothing in skydiving is full proof)...

How you ask??

Check your gear and your friends gear!!!
Be smart in the jumps that you choose to do!!!
If you feel uncomforatable in any way with a skydive or with your gear...don't jump!!! Have it checked!!
Question things that don't look right to you, regardless if you are not sure about the gear!!!!

I would rather ask a stupid questions about gear than find out that something was missrouted that can be potentially hazardous, to myself or those around me. (which happened to me once )

And, yes, most importantly, keep current. I promise to do that for you and for my other friends in the skydiving community.

Alright...going to try and get some sleep.....

Blue Skies everyone!

***
F LORIDA!

[dgskydive 0]

Jean brings up a good point.

Staying current.....not doing so can kill ya as well.

If you go uncurrent or only jump a few times a month, or every few months.......be extra careful.

Dom

[B.B. 0]

dgskydive speaks wise words. This is a high risk sport. You can lower your odds by being smart and conservative, but it in no way prevents the other end of the odds getting you or your friends.
The best you can do is use good judgement, be current, don't let peer pressure influence you. Be honest with yourself and your capabilities.

Most of all don't let complacency set in, an old flying saying is "flying is thousands of hours of boredom interrupted by moments of shear terror" always be ready to react to an emergency from the minute you get on the plane until you are on the ground.

This can be done while also enjoying the Glory of what skydiving is all about.
I have always loved the saying BLUE SKIES/ BLACK DEATH on takeoff....translation...HAVE FUN /BE SAFE!!!! The reaper lurks...

[brad55 0]

After a quick check of Google the "average" risk of dieing in a car accident in the US is 1 in just under 8 million trips and from the USPA site just over 1 in 80 000 jumps thats about a 1 in 1000 ratio ( they are not the same but a good indication of the relative risks)

"Feeling" you are just as safe may not be a good way to prepare mentally for any jump.

[mjosparky 3]

Rob Harris, Dave Wilds, Tom Piras, Roger Nelson……..They were Gods, World Champions, Icons.

They had natural talent, incredible skills and were hugely current………And yet the ground offered them no concession for their level of skill or experience.

There are few, now or in the future, that will ever reach their level in this game we play.

Never for a moment become so arrogant as to believe you are the one that has what it takes to avoid their fate.

(stolen in part from Tonto, thanks my friend)

---

Remember, “You are not now, nor will you ever be good enough not to die in this sport.”

As Dom said, get used to it or go away.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kirrz 0]

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This sport is about life and love, it really is. We love life and try to live it like it is a gift not a right.

Thank you for that. I am going to stick it on my wall.

[Brian3576 0]

i still can't stop thinking "it won't be me"

why would you think you're going to die? why would you do something you think is going to kill you? of course we think it's not going to be you.

yes, i know i do something dangerous, but i don't actually think it's going to kill me !!! i don't have a death wish, just a wish to do an exciting activity that hapens to be fairly dangerous too.

You've got to think it won't be you, how else can you keep doing something if you think it's genuinly going to kill you?

[kirrz 0]

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You've got to think it won't be you, how else can you keep doing something if you think it's genuinly going to kill you?

You don't have to think it's genuinely going to kill you, I guess you just have to acknowledge that it could and that it is chance you are willing to take. You can think 'it won't happen to me' all you want but at the end of the day you are only kidding yourself because it could. Also the mindset of 'it can't happen to me' will just make you complacent.. and skydiving is a sport where you can't afford to be complacent. I guess if the fear of death makes you a more conscious/ safer skydiver, isn't that a good thing?

[Brian3576 0]

why do you have to acknowledge that it will? i know my reserve drills, i know what has to be done on a dive and in what order and in what time frame, acknowledging anything is pointless as it won't make me do anything different

i would not choose to die skydiving, but once you're dead, you're dead, so actually dieing doing something doesn't matter to you, because once it has happened, you won't be aware you're dead or that you died skydiving.... but then again, i'm not religeous, thats why i'm not scared of death

[kirrz 0]

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i would not choose to die skydiving, but once you're dead, you're dead, so actually dieing doing something doesn't matter to you, because once it has happened, you won't be aware you're dead or that you died skydiving....

It matters to the people that love you who have to live with it.

[twibbles 0]

One thing for sure, i'll be changing the way I talk to friends who are thinking of skydiving. As much as i want people to get into the sport, i don't want them to have anything less the the best advice i can give.

Eugene

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

[dgskydive 0]

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i would not choose to die skydiving, but once you're dead, you're dead, so actually dieing doing something doesn't matter to you, because once it has happened, you won't be aware you're dead or that you died skydiving.... but then again, i'm not religeous, thats why i'm not scared of death

You got part of my post.

It is easy to think of yourself and dying. We all know that.

Part of the point I am trying to make is that you will lose someone you know and may even truley care for them. Can you handle that part of it?

The pm's I got referred to losing others and the pain these people are feeling and the fact that they had never thought about the fact that they could lose friends in this sport.

Dom

[Jumpah 0]

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i still can't stop thinking "it won't be me"

When I was a kid I had a sudden fear about dying. I was 7. I was crying under my sheets one night and my dad came into my bedroom and asked "what are you crying about?" I said "I'm afraid I'm going to die!". He said "How old am I?" "I don't know!" He said "I'm 30...and I'm not dead yet...so you'll live at least until 30".

Since that was a zillion years from where I was at that point, it cheered me right up.

I'm 32 now, past that marker but I'm not worried. Some people fear death because they will miss the life they have here on earth...the friends, children, etc. I don't think it works that way...whatever it is across that boundry, I do not believe its sadness.

I would not do this sport if I knew it would kill me. Nope, nope, nope. I'm a chicken in that respect. I know skydiving can kill me if I don't do enough things exactly right each jump. So I am fastidious about gear and pin checks, EPs, jump as safely as we know, and I try my best to be humble and attentive when someone has comments about what I'm doing. Thats the best I can do.

My sincere condolences to all of you who are hurting. Heal fast and well.

[Skyvixen 0]

After experiencing deaths door in 1991 .. I have learned that when its your time to go, it doesn't matter what you are doing.. I have lost friends to this sport and yes it sucks.. But if I die skydiving I'll die with a smile on my face.

Let's put the FUN back in Funeral

Life is a Freefall Enjoy!!
MUFF #2760

[Brian3576 0]

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But if I die skydiving I'll die with a smile on my face.

really? if it happens to me i'm sure i'll be screaming and shouting with a look of total terror on my face. you'll actually be thinking "great, i'm going to die, i think i'll smile" will you?

[tempretired 0]

I aggree with everything you said. Although I only had a little over 500 jumps before I temporarily retired from skydiving, I had a heathly respect for the possibilities on each and every jump that I completed. I retired in 2002 when I got married and started a family. Although I love skydiving, I made a descision to retire at least until my children are grown up. I will decide whether or not I will begin again after they grow up. Although I made this personal choice, I have nothing against skydivers who continue to jump while they raise families. Everyone is different.

Since 1992 when I started skydiving, I've witnessed 2 deaths of DZ regulars, personally knew at least 6 other people that died although I did not witness. My first rig that I purchased (second hand) was originally owned by a person killed last year in a skydiving accident. So, your comments are accurate.

That being said, I loved skydiving and all of the joy and challenges that it provided. I miss it everyday.

Everyone should understand and accept the risks and be prepared for anything and everything on every jump. I don't want to go through every step of a skydive inlcuding all safefy checks and scenerios, but remember that every time you throw out your pilot chute, you could have a malfunction. So, assume that it may be the big one and be prepared to react accordingly.

[Joellercoaster 6]

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What scared me was having a double mal in a case where there was nothing in my control to do. I accepted that risk as my unlucky day. Now I realize that's not true. I can do everything right and shit can still happen.

kirrz, this post isn't directed at you and I have to apologise for taking this bit of your post out of context. The rest of it touched me, and I agree with a lot of it.

But this need to reiterate that "you can do everything right and still die", as happens all the time on this forum, bothers me. I've heard other low-timers reassuring themselves by pointing out that most of these fatalities are the result of human error. This is missing the point. Most of those fatalities are people with way more experience than us, maybe more natural talent than us, and they still died because they made a mistake.

The fact that they died because they screwed up shouldn't reassure us at all. Everyone makes mistakes, and thinking we'll be better trained/quicker on the uptake than all those other people is self-delusion of a particularly insidious kind.

"You can do everything right and still die" is a cliche... we should also keep saying "I will make a mistake, and I might die too."

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[wmw999 2,170]

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The fact that they died because they screwed up shouldn't reassure us at all. Everyone makes mistakes, and thinking we'll be better trained/quicker on the uptake than all those other people is self-delusion of a particularly insidious kind.

When something bad happens to someone that lives, or someone that we liked, then "shit happened." When it's someone we didn't know, we analyze what they did wrong, so that we can KNOW that we'd never make the same mistake .

It's human nature, and it's wrong. Most fatalities and serious injuries do not happen to DGITs. They happen to people just like us, to whom "shit happened." If we can't face that, and the analysis that happens, then this is the wrong place.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[dgskydive 0]

It may be a cliche.....but that doesn't change the fact that is true.

Both statements are true, but, many people never think about the fact they can do everything right and still go in.

Dom