IAD - the Polish method (movie)

[jraf 0]

I guess in Poland they just know better. Judge for yourself

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jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[pchapman 262]

Ok, so what was the point? Nothing went wrong in the movie on first glance.

Or do you not like IAD from a Caravan, using a position crouched in the door? An exit sitting in the doorway would get the PC lower relative to the tail.

If one goes frame by frame for the last exit, one can see the instructor brought the PC down low and away from the jumper as he released it. Still, from the little I know of IAD, the PC tends to quickly line up straight aft of the pin it is pulling on, no matter where one drops the PC. So the PC still ends up pretty high since the jumper hasn't dropped down much at all by the time the bridle is taut.

What's the standard for Caravan IADs? Just asking; I don't know. The tail on a C-182 looks pretty high too for dispatching IAD students off the step.

[wormly81 0]

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I guess in Poland they just know better. Judge for yourself

http://skydivecamera.com/?cat=4

If by just know better you are refering to the fact they post tons of cool videos to a blog then yes they do!

[peek 20]

I didn't see anything scary either.

I wouldn't do it like that with a King Air....

[BMFin 0]

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I didn't see anything scary either.

Do you have some experience with IAD from caravan in standup postition or are you just assuming its safe ?

[SivaGanesha 2]

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I didn't see anything scary either.

I wouldn't do it like that with a King Air....

I don't know much with my jump total but it looks like the pilot chute is still well inside the aircraft when the student exits. This would seem to create the potential problem of the pilot chute snagging on something or someone inside the aircraft if the student leaves unexpectedly or early or in some manner not properly co-ordinated with the instructor.

In my one jump from a Caravan years ago--albeit I was an AFF 1 student--my exit resembled the first jumper in this video, not the second jumper. I would think the same exit procedure (that of the first jumper in this video) would be good for IAD as well. That way the pilot chute is already outside the door as the jumper climbs out and it is assured that if the student leaves the pilot chute will too.

Keep in mind that this is an instructor trainee video so the "students" are not real students but other prospective instructors who may be doing unusual things intentionally to confuse the fellow instructor trainees and see how well they react.

But again I know very little about these things with my jump total.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Watch it again. The pilot chute is thrown before the student actually leaves. The J/M threw it when they felt the student commit, but students have a bad habit of changing their minds. From that position the student would be unlikely to actually stop themselves, but they could hang around for an extra 3/4 of a second or so. It could cause trouble.
I have never done an IAD from a caravan, but the tail looks like it is pretty high in flight.

[pchapman 262]

It is a little hard to see what is happening unless one plays the video in something where one can go frame by frame.

For that apparently mock student at the end of the video, his feet seem to leave the door sill within a frame of the pilot chute actually being let go. His hands, out of frame, were probably already off the plane so he could no longer psych out the instructor.

As for the comment about the 1st vs. 2nd jumper: It's hard to tell what the 1st jumper is doing because the camera view is from his helmet. Perhaps the 2nd jumper is angled outward more, which puts his rig and PC more inside. He does have to start from inside in any case, so a jumper can always dive or fall out early and the instructor would have to deal with getting the PC out.

So I'm still trying to learn exactly what level and type of errors are shown in the video.

There are subtleties to doing IAD well, getting the PC placement and timing right.

(And I'm not sure about the original title, whether I should infer that any errors are typical for Poland or just happen to exist at the drop zone depicted.)

[snafuhere 0]

both jumpers are expirienced and prospective instructors
the IAD method was used in the training because we do not have a plane for static line anymore
all students on our dropzone are trained in AFF only

this whole IAD method might look strange, but afaik everything was safe, tail was high and the "instructor" was aware of impossible to predict "student's" actions

we haven't decided yet if IAD will be used on our dropzone as an alternate to AFF

I think I can handle a student at the door so we are all safe

if one sees any errors on the vid comments are more than wellcomed

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[riggerrob 558]

bandwidth limit exceeded

[snafuhere 0]

too popular ;)
already works fine

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[mircan 0]

Little off-topic...
On second video - reserve, was there line check (by jumper or whoever packed this canopy)?

dudeist skydiver #42

[BMFin 0]

Hi !

We just changed our Otter to a brand new Grand caravan here in Finland. Our DZ decided to quit the IAD training since it wasnt considered safe enough.

At another club here has been an incident where the IAD students PC actually went over the tail on caravan. (this incident had a happy ending however and no one was hurt.) I have personally also wiitnessed when a student jumps up from the door and almost hits the tail with his head.

I think IAD from caravan is doable but risky. If everything is done correctly most likely nothing will happen. But IMO the method from caravan doesnt have enough room for errors. If just one of the factors involved is neglected the outcome might change dramatically. (plane climbing, not reducing speed or student jumping up.... some other factors)

When doing IAD from an Otter you would need to have all 3 mentioned factors happen at once before you could even theoretically imagine hitting the tail. With Caravan you could end up in accident even if just one of the factors is present.

So far I havent heard of a single DZ that has done IAD from a standing position from a caravan. If anyone knows such a DZ, please let me know..
I think IAD from sitting position would be more safe. SL maby even better.

[peek 20]

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Do you have some experience with IAD from caravan in standup postition or are you just assuming its safe ?

That's a good question. I have that experience using experienced jumpers acting as students. I don't think it is as safe as static line, and I don't think it is as safe as having the student sitting in the door, (for S/L or IAD).

My comment was mainly that the video did not include anything that scared me. But it is difficult to scare me about some things.

[snafuhere 0]

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whoever packed this canopy

packer (my ex) was not very experienced
actually it was like her 20-th pack job
never mind

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[mircan 0]

ex before this, or after

cheerio!

dudeist skydiver #42

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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There are subtleties to doing IAD well, getting the PC placement and timing right.

In my view timing is more important than placement. The timing on this one looks to be close, but is still on the wrong side of the line. It is always better late than early with a pilot cute toss.
I think Bfin's comment about the student going up is very significant. The sitting dynamic exit is not my favorite, but would probably be the one I would chose for that plane.

[KermieCorleone 0]

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ex before this, or after

cheerio!

LOL

- Neil

Never make assumptions! That harmless rectangle could be two triangles having sex ...

[DJL 232]

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I didn't see anything scary either.

I wouldn't do it like that with a King Air....

Done it from a KA. Was a borrowed rig and was up to do CRW. The rig's owner tells me on the way up that on the last jump he had a loooong delay before building up enough steam to extract the pin - but he didn't lengthen the closing loop between jumps. So we had someone hold onto the PC and bridle at the bottom left corner of the door and I just dropped out.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I didn't see anything scary either.

I wouldn't do it like that with a King Air....

Done it from a KA. Was a borrowed rig and was up to do CRW. The rig's owner tells me on the way up that on the last jump he had a loooong delay before building up enough steam to extract the pin - but he didn't lengthen the closing loop between jumps. So we had someone hold onto the PC and bridle at the bottom left corner of the door and I just dropped out.

How tight was it? Was it tight enough to pick up the rig by the bridal? That would be ~20lbs. How fast does a pilot chute have to be travelling to generate 20lbs of resistance?

[DJL 232]

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How tight was it? Was it tight enough to pick up the rig by the bridal? That would be ~20lbs. How fast does a pilot chute have to be travelling to generate 20lbs of resistance?

Beats me, it was years ago. If I recall, we didn't even see the owner on the previous CRW jump because he was so far below us - but he didn't tell me about the pin until we were on the way up. I think we also primed (slid out) the pin a little bit before exit. I don't think that the assist was even necessary but I was a very new jumper taking bad advice. Priming the pin is all we would've needed to get it off my back. Anyway, nothing went over the tail which only says that we got away with it. I'm a bit more weary now of a loose PC inside of an aircraft.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher