packing a new canopy

[oz69uk 0]

hi to every1,
I have just got myself a wings/saber2 190 setup. I'm new to skidiving (40 jumps) and I am trying to flatpack this new canopy. I havent jump it yet but just trying to get some good packing skills for the australian summer in Oct.

I get as far as flacking the tail, stowing the riser ect. When I try to S-fold the canopy it puffs out and I loose the neat pack job. The reason is due to the new material and me not being able to squeze the air out.

Has any1 got some tricks or differnt methods of packing that I can try?

[2shay 0]

psycho packing is effective on containing the canopy

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[kenneth21441 0]

Is this ZP material??

It will take some time usually about five jumps or so to let the cells of the material open up. I would say that you just practice and get a technique that you find usefull. Dont let the canopy control you but you control the canopy. Once you get the air out, Keep some weight on it to prevent it from basically filling up.

Take your time.

Hope this helps....

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[Floats18 0]

Who owns your canopy? You do!

Who has control of your canopy? You do!

I've packed professionally for over 2 years now and new canopies are just part of the job. If you need to cheat tho... here's a trick: PRO PACK IT! Roll your tail extra tight (not a lot of material is requried... just very tight small rolls)... coocoon it hard core and tuck the tail material inside the center cell as best you can. WHILE YOU LAY ON THE CANOPY, get the D-bag ready (streached out as best as possible) and make your 2nd (larger) s-fold first (the s-fold closest to the attachment point). Put that fold into the bag and then make your 1st s-fold (closest to the lines) and put it inbetween the folds you just made. This makes the canopy less prone to exploding as you try to make both folds outside of the bag. As you get better at packing you'll find your own system, so don't sweat it. Just practice and you'll find what works best for you, its all about practice.

Enjoy your new canopy!

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[riggergrant 0]

Something to consider as well is that PD does not recommend Psycho packing their canopies, there are some design considerations involved that affect your openings which are best controlled using a PRO pack. Go to the PD website for detailed info.

I used to psycho pack because I found it easier, however once I took the time to really learn the PRO pack I never looked back. RTFM.. Read That Fine Manual.

G

[Unstable 8]

The joys of a new canopy. I can't imagine for the life of me how you could flat pack it without it filling with air and expanding on you. Plus, with the trim of the Sabre2 -It'll look pretty weird layed out for a flat pack.
As far as managing the new material goes - i don't know what to tell you other than you'll have to do it a lot and find your own system. Watch other jumpers bag their canopies, and practice practice practice. I have my little method of using my knees on both sides of the s-folds to keep it in the shape of the deployment bag - and every jumper is going to do it a little differently.

Congrats on your new gear - now go jump it lots!!

=========Shaun ==========

[Unstable 8]

Quote

psycho packing is effective on containing the canopy

I psycho packed my new sabre2 150 for it's first 100 jumps or so. I did it in front of a PD rep at the hillbilly boogie a few years ago and he put a stop to that at once.

the openings were, well, less than what we should expect from a sabre2. Since I started a real propack - all my opening concerns went away, except for end cell closures.

=========Shaun ==========

[2shay 0]

that is that pd reps opinion, but i have seen a lot of people psycho pack all sorts of canopies and have great consistent openings. It is safe and has been proven to be.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[oz69uk 0]

I think I will start to pro pack. I learnt to flat pack during training and have really stuck to that. A friend of mine has got a new Saber2 170 and he pro packs. I guess it makes sense as the PD manual has instructions to pro pack.

My next jump wont be untill Sept so iv got loads of time to get it right!

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I guess it makes sense as the PD manual has instructions to pro pack.

Not much. You can not learn packing from a book.

Check this, you might get some ideas.

[RandomLemming 0]

Quote

Who owns your canopy? You do!

Who has control of your canopy? You do!

I disagree vehemently! Some bad gnomes have control of my second hand pilot. They hide inside and make it jump all over the place at odd times ;)

Quote

Roll your tail extra tight (not a lot of material is requried... just very tight small rolls)... coocoon it hard core and tuck the tail material inside the center cell as best you can. WHILE YOU LAY ON THE CANOPY, get the D-bag ready (streached out as best as possible) and make your 2nd (larger) s-fold first (the s-fold closest to the attachment point). Put that fold into the bag and then make your 1st s-fold (closest to the lines) and put it inbetween the folds you just made.

That is just brilliant advice. Someone showed me how to do this over the weekend, and it takes packing a new canopy from a nightmare exercise to a (relatively) simple task!

[RandomLemming 0]

No jumps until September? That's harsh!

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

Who owns your canopy? You do!

Who has control of your canopy? You do!

I've packed professionally for over 2 years now and new canopies are just part of the job. If you need to cheat tho... here's a trick: PRO PACK IT! Roll your tail extra tight (not a lot of material is requried... just very tight small rolls)... coocoon it hard core and tuck the tail material inside the center cell as best you can. WHILE YOU LAY ON THE CANOPY, get the D-bag ready (streached out as best as possible) and make your 2nd (larger) s-fold first (the s-fold closest to the attachment point). Put that fold into the bag and then make your 1st s-fold (closest to the lines) and put it inbetween the folds you just made. This makes the canopy less prone to exploding as you try to make both folds outside of the bag. As you get better at packing you'll find your own system, so don't sweat it. Just practice and you'll find what works best for you, its all about practice.

Kyle, I think you talked more than you packed over the last two years

But I agree completely with his words of wisdom. Personally, I don't do the second S fold first and put it in the bag like he described, but only because I'm so used to dealing with slippy new canopies after 2+ years as a packer that I'm just used to controlling the fabric well that way. Like others have said, you'll find a system that works for you. Talk with your local riggers and packers, we all have little tricks that we are happy to show you, you might pick up some ideas that way.

Don't let it get to you. My husband has also been a packer for the last 2+ years... yesterday a newer Sabre 2 kicked his ass twice... he just couldn't get it in the bag to save his life... and this is a very good packer with thousands of pack jobs behind him. It's ok to be frustrated with it, give it time, it gets easier. Practice a LOT!!!!

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[JackR 0]

First, thanks for asking for help. When I teach packing I'm more impressed with students that have the courage to ask the questions they don't understand.

Proper Ram-Air Orientation (PRO) Packing is the way to go with your new Sabre2. Like you I was first taught to flat pack. There are lots of different flat packs, and I learned what is also called the stack pack. I learned to PRO pack because all the cool jumpers were doing it. Now that I have more packing experience, I better understand its advantages.

As was mentioned it can be hard to learn the pack job from a book. However I must say that the drawings in the PD manual are the best PRO Pack drawings I've seen. Make sure you get a rigger or instructor to guide you through transitioning to the PRO Pack. They can demonstrate techniques that work for them. They can also give you feedback on your techniques. (Two things the book can't do.)

Don't think that the PRO Pack is starting over from scratch. Your rigger or instructor should be able to show you how similar the PRO Pack is to your flat pack. I'm trying to think of some quick advice that I can share with you, without going into my full packing class.

One key to transitioning from a flat pack to the PRO Pack is the point of view. Instead of looking at the pack job from the top skin, you're looking at the bottom skin. Also it isn't all laid out in front of you. It is more of a jumble at your knees. I will sometimes use a hook to hang the canopy from so packing students can walk around the parachute and get some perspective on what is where and how it looks.

You're still stacking the lines on top of each other (B on A, C on B, and D on C), but now you're moving half of the canopy to the other side of the lines. The old adage of "Lines to the inside. Fabric to the outside." still holds true in the PRO Pack.

Transitioning the pack job from vertical (in your hand or over your shoulder) to horizontal (laying on the ground) is key. I've seen many packjobs lost in this transition. All that flaking work is lost on a bad transition to the ground. Practice is the key here. Keep tension on the lines and make sure you have plenty of room in front of you. There is no shame in picking up a bad lay down and re-flaking.

Be patient getting the air out of a ZP canopy. Remember that all the air still trapped in the canopy at this point must come out through all the individual stitch holes in the canopy. Trying to rush the air out will move the fabric out of the neat flaking that you put into it.

As was mentioned earlier, Going from a dressed canopy with the air out of it to one in the bag and locked is a mental game. I've heard lots of techniques to getting there, but in the end the advice that has the best results for me is that you have to know you can bag it and bag it cleanly. Maintain control of the pack job through out this process and you'll get good results. Lose control and you're probably left with starting over.

I have this mental 3-D picture of how the canopy should look as you're bagging it. Unfortunately I'm not an artist and haven't been able to get it down on paper where I could share it. It is a combination of the manuals I've read and the pack jobs I've done. The other trouble is that many skydivers find bagging a canopy more about luck than instruction. When watching this looks more like magic as a wad of fabric seems to fit in a seemingly too small D-bag. Part of my picture is being able to look at the side of the stacked canopy before bagging it. (I've never used the make the folds in the bag technique because by the time I saw it I didn't need it.) From that side view I can see each of the S-folds that went into the stack. That image is what I strive for on each pack job. The closest I come to achieving this is on my tandem packjobs. From PD 425s to Precision 365s, they stack up cleanly for me.

If you can get a clean stack, putting the bag around the canopy and closing it just happens. If you struggle with the stack, you'll struggle with the bagging. And a lot of people don't realize that much of their trouble in closing the container is due to their trouble bagging the canopy. A poorly bagged canopy makes it harder to close the container.

Well I've typed a lot here. Remember that opinions are like assholes; Everybody's got one. I hope there is something in here that helps you with your new Sabre2. I regret not being able to demonstrate some of my techniques with you. If you can't wait until September to jump, make a trip across the pond to Lost Prairie, MT and maybe I can show you a trick or two.

Packin' Jack
42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving
25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009
2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm

[JackR 0]

I was just looking over the Strong Dual Hawk Tandem manual (available at http://www.strongparachutes.com). There is a great sequence of photos showing the S-folds.

Remember that you're working with a main canopy and the manufacturer's instructions take priority in your pack job. So ignore the other parts of this pack job. Just focus on the Reserve packing instructions, and only pages 12 and 13 covering the S-folds.

The first S-fold is clean and places the trailing edge of the canopy at the edge of the first fold. The second S-fold comes all the way down to the first to define the edge of the canopy which will be at the mouth of the D-Bag.

The first S-fold is slightly shorter than the depth of the D-bag, but only enough that the bulk of the canopy will fit to the bottom of the bag.

There is excess canopy hanging off the end of the stack after the second S-fold. These are often call the ears of the pack job. By this point you're only dealing with fabric. All of the lines are contained and controlled in the stack. Cleanly tuck these ears back into the stack to form the edge of the stack that will set against the bottom of the bag. Do not tuck the bridle or bridle attachment back in there as they need to be firmly against the bottom of the bag. On deployment the tension that is pulling the bag off your back is here. You don't want that slipping along the canopy where it could do damage.

I see a lot of pack jobs where the canopy slips and expands out the sides which make seeing these well defined folds harder. Sometimes this is too much downward force on the stack trying to control it. Another problem is pushing or stuffing the edges of the pack job while dressing it to the width of the D-bag. Of course the worse problem is dragging a steering line to the front of the canopy, so that becomes priority one. But after you can get just the top skin of the center cell to help you dress the canopy, make sure it is smooth all the way to the center of the parachute against the floor. This way you can hold the cocoon of the canopy with your thumb and fingers of the hand lifting it up to make the S-folds.

Well I hope these photos and may additional ramblings also help with you're packing pursuits. Keep practicing and asking questions.

Packin' Jack
42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving
25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009
2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm