Douva 0 #101 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteI could live alone, have space and time to myself to unwind after work, always be able to take a shower when I get home, and always get a good night's sleep, or I could endure never having any alone time, never knowing if I'm going to be able to take a shower when I get home, and rolling the dice every night on whether or not I'll get a good night's sleep, all for the sake of having health insurance I may never use. Hmmm????? Have you never lived with roommates? Good lord! You make it sound like a Nazi Death Camp. We were discussing sharing a three bedroom house with five other people. I think most people would agree that that's pretty intense.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivermom 0 #102 January 30, 2007 100 posts now, and this still hasn't made it to Speaker's Corner! No seriously, some great points made, and I am learning a lot.Mrs. WaltAppel All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #103 January 30, 2007 I can't believe all the flack Douva has taken from you folks. Do you folks live in a cave? Get real here, today, you get taken care of, even if you don't have insurance. If you do have insurance and you don't like what the HMO or whoever says you ought to do, you can claim to be a 'state-care' person (or some legal- mumbo-jumbo like that). IOW, you get right there in the ranks of the indigent. I actually have a friend that did this after a skydiving accident. He made good money and had good (well almost good) insurance. The insurance company wanted him to transfer to a facility that was not as experienced in ortho than the place he was at. IOW, you can live life without insurance, betting that you won't need it, and go on with life happy as a clam. If per chance, something happens and you need medical help, you'll get it and a discount payment plan - if you don't have insurance. If you do have insurance, you get the premium rates. As Ned Flanders says, insurance is a perverse form of gambling. You pay a lot of money and hope it does not pay off. Of course, it is better to have a safety net of real insurance or self-insurance (the sell-a-building plan mentioned earlier) .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #104 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt's not like you're going to receive a bill for somebody else's injury. You're kidding, right? While their name may not appear on my bill, their costs most certainly do. Yes, there is a slight increase in your medical bills and/or insurance premiums. Again, that's the way the system works. Other people aren't required to have their lives ruined simply because the other option costs you a few dollars more than you would otherwise pay. The alternative to having their life ruined is to pay a few dollars more every month/year in order to keep me from having to pick up the tab. If they make a conscious choice to not pay those premiums, they should no longer have the option of passing the consequences of that decision on to me. That said, I'd wouldn't mind there being a basic healthcare plan offered to low-income people on a sliding scale with the balance of the costs picked up by myself and others who can afford it, be that through taxes or as a condition of running a health insurance company. Speaker's corner anyone? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #105 January 30, 2007 If this thread heads towards anymore direct hostity towards specific people or if this takes off anymore off topic then it might get moved or it might get removed an a new post created. A lot of slack was allowed to happen in this thread but by no means does this mean that this should be allowed to continue to other threads. I personally see the value in having this agruement be as rational as possible and keeping it out of Speakers Corner since in a lot of ways it effects every jumper out there. But if people want to interject their political views (that hasn't happened yet, I'm trying to prevent it) then its going to be moved. In the mean time please feel free to keep a civil discussion about this going. Also if you want to give Koji some money to help him on his expenses I'm sure that it will be greatly appreciated. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #106 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIt's not like you're going to receive a bill for somebody else's injury. You're kidding, right? While their name may not appear on my bill, their costs most certainly do. Yes, there is a slight increase in your medical bills and/or insurance premiums. Again, that's the way the system works. Other people aren't required to have their lives ruined simply because the other option costs you a few dollars more than you would otherwise pay. The alternative to having their life ruined is to pay a few dollars more every month/year in order to keep me from having to pick up the tab. If they make a conscious choice to not pay those premiums, they should no longer have the option of passing the consequences of that decision on to me. That said, I'd wouldn't mind there being a basic healthcare plan offered to low-income people on a sliding scale with the balance of the costs picked up by myself and others who can afford it, be that through taxes or as a condition of running a health insurance company. Speaker's corner anyone? Blues, Dave As long as the hospital is willing to work with the person and develop a payment plan he or she can afford, I agree that making regular payments is the best plan. However, as I said before, if the person finds that the amount of money he or she owes the hospital is keeping him or her from being able to purchase a home (I don't know the laws regarding medical bills and credit reporting; I am speaking hypothetically), or something of that nature, I can understand someone choosing to opt for bankruptcy. I don't think a man who requires emergency brain surgery when he's eighteen-years-old should be told that because of it he can't buy a house for his family when he's 45. Again, I don't know specifically how that type of massive, long-term debt could affect a person; I'm simply suggesting that there are scenarios where bankruptcy is probably the most sensible option for someone faced with medical bills far beyond his or her ability to pay in a single lifetime.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #107 January 30, 2007 QuoteI'm simply suggesting that there are scenarios where bankruptcy is probably the most sensible option for someone faced with medical bills far beyond his or her ability to pay in a single lifetime. With a low tolerance for financial risk, finding affordable health insurance and avoiding high physical risk activities in the interim would probably be a bit more sensible. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #108 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteI'm simply suggesting that there are scenarios where bankruptcy is probably the most sensible option for someone faced with medical bills far beyond his or her ability to pay in a single lifetime. With a low tolerance for financial risk, finding affordable health insurance and avoiding high physical risk activities in the interim would probably be a bit more sensible. Blues, Dave That's great in theory, Dave, but where do you draw the line? If skydiving is too physical, what about snow skiing? What about playing pickup basketball games? What about roller skating with your kids? Who are we to say how active a lifestyle people with lower incomes should be allowed to lead?I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #109 January 30, 2007 QuoteIf this thread heads towards anymore direct hostity towards specific people or if this takes off anymore off topic then it might get moved or it might get removed an a new post created. A lot of slack was allowed to happen in this thread but by no means does this mean that this should be allowed to continue to other threads. I personally see the value in having this agruement be as rational as possible and keeping it out of Speakers Corner since in a lot of ways it effects every jumper out there. But if people want to interject their political views (that hasn't happened yet, I'm trying to prevent it) then its going to be moved. In the mean time please feel free to keep a civil discussion about this going. Also if you want to give Koji some money to help him on his expenses I'm sure that it will be greatly appreciated. One day is all I care to expend on this discussion, anyway. My well-insured ass spent the day surfing (on water, not the kind I normally do), and I'm sunburned, sore, and about to pass out. I'm not spending anymore of my vacation in a heated debate. Any writing I do tomorrow will be the creative kind. I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #110 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteI've said it before and I'll say it again - if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive. For about 8 months I jumped while I wasn't working. As soon as I left my job I bought individual insurance. Never had to use it, but I wouldn't have jumped if it weren't there. Damn right!!! This sport was *started* by people who could afford all the latest gear (in matching colors), AADs, turbine aircraft, the finest cars, and (of course) medical insurance. Anyone who doesn't respect those traditions shouldn't be jumping. Walt Holy leaps of logic, Batman. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #111 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'm simply suggesting that there are scenarios where bankruptcy is probably the most sensible option for someone faced with medical bills far beyond his or her ability to pay in a single lifetime. With a low tolerance for financial risk, finding affordable health insurance and avoiding high physical risk activities in the interim would probably be a bit more sensible. Blues, Dave That's great in theory, Dave, but where do you draw the line? If skydiving is too physical, what about snow skiing? What about playing pickup basketball games? What about roller skating with your kids? Who are we to say how active a lifestyle people with lower incomes should be allowed to lead? On the one hand, I'm not going to dictate what level of risk they should be allowed to expose themselves to. What I think they shouldn't do is intentionally expose everyone else to that risk just because they don't have the ability to deal with the consequences of their decision. On the other hand, I just crossed over to your side of this debate, albeit for a somewhat different reason than has been stated here. Thinking about the economics of this, the only additional financial burden the people being discussed pose to society is the cost of their premiums, not the losses. If they were insured, their provider would pay the catastrophic losses and pass them on to their other customers. If they were not insured, the hospital would absorb the catastrophic losses and pass them on to other patients/insurance companies. Either way, everybody else pays, it's just matter of how they get there. Bottom line - if someone gets injured beyond their ability to pay, the rest of society is going to pick up the tab one way or another. Edit to add: I still think such people should be responsible for the cost of their premiums. If they end up massively injured and have to file for bankrupcy, there should be a residual debt that survives in which they pay some reasonable amount for that cost. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigbearfng 16 #112 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuote "Independent contractors" ARE their "employers" So by your note, they are kicking themselves in the face. "Independent contractors" need to arrange for their own insurance. ----------------------------------------------------- Point taken --------------------------------------------------- Perhaps a way to do this would be to organize a cooperative where they can approach insurance companies and leverage their numbers to get better deals on insurance. This is much better than forming a union and trying to force the (regular jumpers via the) DZOs to cover their care. It's one idea. That is possible today, Its called a "Natural Group" and if a group of skydiving instructors got together and wanted to purchase a group policy, they could. At least that is possible in the state of florida anyway. I have been in the insurance industry for 20 years in Florida and I get so sick of people griping about insurance with half truths and innuendos (sp). Folks, just educate yourselves. NO, insurance is NOT "affordable" for every one but is "affordable" for most. It is about choices. Yes, MOST anyone can find affordable MAJOR MEDICAL for less than $150 a month (in FLA anyway) and for you 20 Somethings, BC/BS has some EXTREMELY affordable programs. Also, if you will agree to a LARGE deductible and investigate an HSA (health savings account) and EDUCATE yourself about the product, it is affordable for ALMOST anyone. If you have ANY questions, please feel free to email me or post here, I'll do my best to provide an answer, and NO, I AM NOT ADVERTISING for your business, I just get tired of people being uninformed about something so important. [RANT OFF]. Scott Thank you, this is the kind of info I was hoping to generate. Please folks, don't get this sent elsewhere!!!! I truly wanted this to keep heading in a direction that would help out!!! Again , my thought at this point is if there was a group policy available thru USPA for instructors that had an easy sign up it seems a lot more likely that they would use it?! And it would be pretty affordable?! Also to the previous poster that mentioned Work Comp that he was able to pay into at Elsinore- do you have further info on that to share? Instructors what do you think????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grue 1 #113 January 30, 2007 Quote Fair enough. I fixed it. Yes, Brandon will soon be making good money, but consider this: he has to pay malpractice insurance, too. That's not as cheap as health insurance, thanks to the worthless litigious assholes that permeate society. A good friend of my family is a neurosurgeon, has never had a malpractice claim against him, and pays EIGHTY-TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR in malpractice insurance. At the time, that was something like 25% of his income. Then he still gets to pay income taxes, so on, so forth. Don't kid yourself, doctors aren't getting off light. Yes, the medical industry is very fucked up, mostly due to insurance companies and aforementioned litigious assholes. There's no easy solution to it, and I sure as hell don't think socialized healthcare is the answer.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #114 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteI've said it before and I'll say it again - if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive. For about 8 months I jumped while I wasn't working. As soon as I left my job I bought individual insurance. Never had to use it, but I wouldn't have jumped if it weren't there. Damn right!!! This sport was *started* by people who could afford all the latest gear (in matching colors), AADs, turbine aircraft, the finest cars, and (of course) medical insurance. Anyone who doesn't respect those traditions shouldn't be jumping. Walt Holy leaps of logic, Batman. Unfortunately, it's not all that much of a leap these days. For a lot of people in the US, medical insurance has become a prohibitively expensive luxury. Check out this report. The number of people without health insurance in the US is approaching an estimated 50 million. That's roughly 1 person in 6 that doesn't have health insurance in this country and it's not because they are all poor and/or irresponsible. For people whose employers offer health insurance and pay most or all of the cost, it's easy to say, "if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive". It's also relatively easy to say that for self-employeed people who make decent money and are young and have no history of health problems. Unfortunately, though, both of those groups are shrinking. Economic realities have forced many employers to either reduce health plan benefits or to eliminate them entirely and, due to the "graying of America", there are many whose health insurance premiums are very high because of age and/or having a family, even if their medical history has been good. Add to that the people who have had serious injury, cancer, chronic disase, etc., and you have a large class of people for whom health insurance is extremely expensive or is simply not available. Clearly, many of those people cannot afford to skydive because it would be a choice between eating and jumping. At the other end of the spectrum, though, is a group of people who are employeed and making a decent wage but whose health insurance premium could be well over $1000 per month. The question for them becomes should they put their life on hold and have medical insurance or should they accept the risk and hope for the best. So, back to the "leap of logic". Strangely enough, this sport was not started by yuppies--the early days included a bunch of ex-military people who would cough up 50 bucks for surplus gear and either pay for some lessons or just go up and do it. They didn't drive to their favorite turbine DZ in their Mercedes, BMWs, and Porches. I'm sure a great many, even back then, didn't have health insurance. They accepted the risk and went for it. Irresponsible? I have no doubt that there was plenty of that. Does that make me look down my nose at them? Not even a little. In fact, I'll shake their hand and listen to their stories about the early days of skydiving any time. When I started in the sport nearly 30 years ago, the spirit of the sport's early days was still very much alive and I still see that spirit in jumpers today who, by your self-righteous standard, shouldn't be at the DZ because they "can't afford to skydive". I'm glad they're there. I hope that's not too irresponsible of me. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites white_falcon 0 #115 January 30, 2007 Quote At the other end of the spectrum, though, is a group of people who are employeed and making a decent wage but whose health insurance premium could be well over $1000 per month. Anyone paying in excess of $1000/month needs to investigate other companies and/or deductibles/plans. Again, and HSA - Health Savings Account - is a GREAT option but you must understand the product. Helath insurance IS affordable you will self insure (read take a high deductible) and SAVE the difference in an account specified for that. HERE is a SPECIFIC example: Family of 3, (35 y/o Husb and Wife, 10y/o child) HSA $3800 deductible 100% paid after deductible, $328 per month "Standard Health insurance" $1000 Deductible, pays 100% of covered expenses after deductible is met, 476/mont. These are just 2 examples and this is INDIVIDUAL REGULAR health iinsurance, NOT major Medical, for an ENTIRE FAMILY!!!!! Now I will concede that this is is in Florida, and I am not familiar with rates in other States, but I cannot imagine a SIGNIFICANT difference. Additionally, these rates are not the cheapest out there, they just happen to be rates fo a company I represent. My point folks, is, if you educate yourself, and shop, you CAN find GOOD QUALITY health insurance that IS AFFORDABLE. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #116 January 30, 2007 QuoteMy point folks, is, if you educate yourself, and shop, you CAN find GOOD QUALITY health insurance that IS AFFORDABLE. Scott Ok, let's say one of the people in your hypothetical family is in their mid-40's and had a melanoma removed in the past or has been diagnosed rheumatoid arthritis or diabetes. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #117 January 30, 2007 Help us out, Walt...call for mid-50's, history of hemmoroids, enlarged prostate, arthritis, and mental instability. Who needs insurance? I always tell my skydiving friends to just strip my gear and jumpsiut and throw me out by the side of the road to let the state take care of it. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites white_falcon 0 #118 January 30, 2007 Andy, Anyone who can't xit an aircraft and not kick someone in the stomach on xit shouldn't be "ALLOWED" to have insurance!!! (know who I am yet?) LOL Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #119 January 30, 2007 QuoteHelp us out, Walt...call for mid-50's, history of hemmoroids, enlarged prostate, arthritis, and mental instability. Who needs insurance? I always tell my skydiving friends to just strip my gear and jumpsiut and throw me out by the side of the road to let the state take care of it. Hey, I'm not in my mid-50's!!! Oh, you are referring to yourself. Uh, never mind! Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tsalnukt 1 #120 January 30, 2007 This sport was "started" by some yahoo's that wanted to jump out of an airplane. Not by the rich and wealthy. They eventually moved in and help progress the sport. When the "pioneer" were jumping out of planes with wrist-watches fro altimeters and old gear that the army didn't want anymore, I don't think that they were asking themselves if their insurance would cover "this". I chose my "lifestyle" just as they did and I know that I have no insurance and I know that I have to live lie I have no insurance. I not going to work a shitty 9 to 5 doing something that i really don't like so I can have insurance. I'm going to do something that I love and trully enjoy and accept the consequences like an adult. Now that I know there is affordable insurance out there I can do what I want and be insured. Don't give us crap 'cause we're not among the insured. We're just a bit more dedicated to what we love to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites white_falcon 0 #121 January 30, 2007 Walt, Yes, You are insurable. Cancer/Melanoma may have some restricted coverage (for a period of time) but you CAN still get at LEAST a major medical (incase u hook it in) for relatively inexpensive. u want specifics?? Wait for my underwriters to get in the office and I will supply them. Again, I am NOT trying to sell ANYONE insurance, Just provide an education. (I actually work directly for a Life Insurance company that doesn't even like that I have a license or contract that ALLOWS me to be able to sell health insurance) Questions? send them, I will provide answers where I can, and when possible, even refer you to a good agent. Edited cause I can't type Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #122 January 30, 2007 QuoteWalt, Yes, You are insurable. Cancer/Melanoma may have some restricted coverage (for a period of time) but you CAN still get at LEAST a major medical (incase u hook it in) for relatively inexpensive. u want specifics?? Wait for my underwriters to get in the office and I will supply them. Again, I am NOT trying to sell ANYONE insurance, Just provide an education. (I actually work directly for a Life Insurance company that doesn't even like that I have a license or contract that ALLOWS me to be able to sell health insurance) Questions? send them, I will provide answers where I can, and when possible, even refer you to a good agent. Edited cause I can't type Scott Actually, that scenario doesn't describe me but it *does* describe some people who have a very difficult time finding affordable medical insurance. What I was looking for was a real-world medical insurance rate for someone I think would have a difficult time finding insurance. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites white_falcon 0 #123 January 30, 2007 I will still check on the answer and post for you. I will use the parameters you described and find out. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #124 January 30, 2007 As long as when you have 10+K in bills from a broken leg you foot the bill, I don't care if you have insurance or not. What bothers me is people who make the same choice that you do... no insurance, and then expect the docs to provide them care at no charge, or society to foot the bill... when are people going to be responsible for taking care of themselves? Douva, you keep bringing up kids.... like everything else in this discussion, kids are a financial choice that the person made. If a person chooses to have children, they must live with the consequenses, both good and bad... that includes financial ones. My disclaimer here is I do my part, I provide probably 30+ free eye exams a year for people who truly hit hard times, can't afford it, whatever. I usually buy them glasses too if they need them. This is on top of the patients that are financially strapped that I can get covered through the state or through Local Lions clubs. And the patients that pay $10/month or whatever on their bill until it is paid. I bust my ass to help people, but only those that help themselves first... the ones who clearly are in a tough bind and working hard to make things better. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #125 January 30, 2007 QuoteBottom line - if someone gets injured beyond their ability to pay, the rest of society is going to pick up the tab one way or another. I think the issue with Douva is NOT that there exists a safety net (read: contingiency plan) for people in poor economic conditions. The issue is the (originally stated) idea that people should plan on the safety net as as their primary means of health care coverage, instead of as a backup option. That is NOT what it was designed for. The whole idea that it's there, therefore don't even try to find a way to get your own coverage is very distasteful to almost everyone. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 5 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
grue 1 #113 January 30, 2007 Quote Fair enough. I fixed it. Yes, Brandon will soon be making good money, but consider this: he has to pay malpractice insurance, too. That's not as cheap as health insurance, thanks to the worthless litigious assholes that permeate society. A good friend of my family is a neurosurgeon, has never had a malpractice claim against him, and pays EIGHTY-TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR in malpractice insurance. At the time, that was something like 25% of his income. Then he still gets to pay income taxes, so on, so forth. Don't kid yourself, doctors aren't getting off light. Yes, the medical industry is very fucked up, mostly due to insurance companies and aforementioned litigious assholes. There's no easy solution to it, and I sure as hell don't think socialized healthcare is the answer.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #114 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteI've said it before and I'll say it again - if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive. For about 8 months I jumped while I wasn't working. As soon as I left my job I bought individual insurance. Never had to use it, but I wouldn't have jumped if it weren't there. Damn right!!! This sport was *started* by people who could afford all the latest gear (in matching colors), AADs, turbine aircraft, the finest cars, and (of course) medical insurance. Anyone who doesn't respect those traditions shouldn't be jumping. Walt Holy leaps of logic, Batman. Unfortunately, it's not all that much of a leap these days. For a lot of people in the US, medical insurance has become a prohibitively expensive luxury. Check out this report. The number of people without health insurance in the US is approaching an estimated 50 million. That's roughly 1 person in 6 that doesn't have health insurance in this country and it's not because they are all poor and/or irresponsible. For people whose employers offer health insurance and pay most or all of the cost, it's easy to say, "if you can't afford insurance, you can't afford to skydive". It's also relatively easy to say that for self-employeed people who make decent money and are young and have no history of health problems. Unfortunately, though, both of those groups are shrinking. Economic realities have forced many employers to either reduce health plan benefits or to eliminate them entirely and, due to the "graying of America", there are many whose health insurance premiums are very high because of age and/or having a family, even if their medical history has been good. Add to that the people who have had serious injury, cancer, chronic disase, etc., and you have a large class of people for whom health insurance is extremely expensive or is simply not available. Clearly, many of those people cannot afford to skydive because it would be a choice between eating and jumping. At the other end of the spectrum, though, is a group of people who are employeed and making a decent wage but whose health insurance premium could be well over $1000 per month. The question for them becomes should they put their life on hold and have medical insurance or should they accept the risk and hope for the best. So, back to the "leap of logic". Strangely enough, this sport was not started by yuppies--the early days included a bunch of ex-military people who would cough up 50 bucks for surplus gear and either pay for some lessons or just go up and do it. They didn't drive to their favorite turbine DZ in their Mercedes, BMWs, and Porches. I'm sure a great many, even back then, didn't have health insurance. They accepted the risk and went for it. Irresponsible? I have no doubt that there was plenty of that. Does that make me look down my nose at them? Not even a little. In fact, I'll shake their hand and listen to their stories about the early days of skydiving any time. When I started in the sport nearly 30 years ago, the spirit of the sport's early days was still very much alive and I still see that spirit in jumpers today who, by your self-righteous standard, shouldn't be at the DZ because they "can't afford to skydive". I'm glad they're there. I hope that's not too irresponsible of me. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #115 January 30, 2007 Quote At the other end of the spectrum, though, is a group of people who are employeed and making a decent wage but whose health insurance premium could be well over $1000 per month. Anyone paying in excess of $1000/month needs to investigate other companies and/or deductibles/plans. Again, and HSA - Health Savings Account - is a GREAT option but you must understand the product. Helath insurance IS affordable you will self insure (read take a high deductible) and SAVE the difference in an account specified for that. HERE is a SPECIFIC example: Family of 3, (35 y/o Husb and Wife, 10y/o child) HSA $3800 deductible 100% paid after deductible, $328 per month "Standard Health insurance" $1000 Deductible, pays 100% of covered expenses after deductible is met, 476/mont. These are just 2 examples and this is INDIVIDUAL REGULAR health iinsurance, NOT major Medical, for an ENTIRE FAMILY!!!!! Now I will concede that this is is in Florida, and I am not familiar with rates in other States, but I cannot imagine a SIGNIFICANT difference. Additionally, these rates are not the cheapest out there, they just happen to be rates fo a company I represent. My point folks, is, if you educate yourself, and shop, you CAN find GOOD QUALITY health insurance that IS AFFORDABLE. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #116 January 30, 2007 QuoteMy point folks, is, if you educate yourself, and shop, you CAN find GOOD QUALITY health insurance that IS AFFORDABLE. Scott Ok, let's say one of the people in your hypothetical family is in their mid-40's and had a melanoma removed in the past or has been diagnosed rheumatoid arthritis or diabetes. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #117 January 30, 2007 Help us out, Walt...call for mid-50's, history of hemmoroids, enlarged prostate, arthritis, and mental instability. Who needs insurance? I always tell my skydiving friends to just strip my gear and jumpsiut and throw me out by the side of the road to let the state take care of it. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #118 January 30, 2007 Andy, Anyone who can't xit an aircraft and not kick someone in the stomach on xit shouldn't be "ALLOWED" to have insurance!!! (know who I am yet?) LOL Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #119 January 30, 2007 QuoteHelp us out, Walt...call for mid-50's, history of hemmoroids, enlarged prostate, arthritis, and mental instability. Who needs insurance? I always tell my skydiving friends to just strip my gear and jumpsiut and throw me out by the side of the road to let the state take care of it. Hey, I'm not in my mid-50's!!! Oh, you are referring to yourself. Uh, never mind! Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #120 January 30, 2007 This sport was "started" by some yahoo's that wanted to jump out of an airplane. Not by the rich and wealthy. They eventually moved in and help progress the sport. When the "pioneer" were jumping out of planes with wrist-watches fro altimeters and old gear that the army didn't want anymore, I don't think that they were asking themselves if their insurance would cover "this". I chose my "lifestyle" just as they did and I know that I have no insurance and I know that I have to live lie I have no insurance. I not going to work a shitty 9 to 5 doing something that i really don't like so I can have insurance. I'm going to do something that I love and trully enjoy and accept the consequences like an adult. Now that I know there is affordable insurance out there I can do what I want and be insured. Don't give us crap 'cause we're not among the insured. We're just a bit more dedicated to what we love to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #121 January 30, 2007 Walt, Yes, You are insurable. Cancer/Melanoma may have some restricted coverage (for a period of time) but you CAN still get at LEAST a major medical (incase u hook it in) for relatively inexpensive. u want specifics?? Wait for my underwriters to get in the office and I will supply them. Again, I am NOT trying to sell ANYONE insurance, Just provide an education. (I actually work directly for a Life Insurance company that doesn't even like that I have a license or contract that ALLOWS me to be able to sell health insurance) Questions? send them, I will provide answers where I can, and when possible, even refer you to a good agent. Edited cause I can't type Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #122 January 30, 2007 QuoteWalt, Yes, You are insurable. Cancer/Melanoma may have some restricted coverage (for a period of time) but you CAN still get at LEAST a major medical (incase u hook it in) for relatively inexpensive. u want specifics?? Wait for my underwriters to get in the office and I will supply them. Again, I am NOT trying to sell ANYONE insurance, Just provide an education. (I actually work directly for a Life Insurance company that doesn't even like that I have a license or contract that ALLOWS me to be able to sell health insurance) Questions? send them, I will provide answers where I can, and when possible, even refer you to a good agent. Edited cause I can't type Scott Actually, that scenario doesn't describe me but it *does* describe some people who have a very difficult time finding affordable medical insurance. What I was looking for was a real-world medical insurance rate for someone I think would have a difficult time finding insurance. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #123 January 30, 2007 I will still check on the answer and post for you. I will use the parameters you described and find out. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #124 January 30, 2007 As long as when you have 10+K in bills from a broken leg you foot the bill, I don't care if you have insurance or not. What bothers me is people who make the same choice that you do... no insurance, and then expect the docs to provide them care at no charge, or society to foot the bill... when are people going to be responsible for taking care of themselves? Douva, you keep bringing up kids.... like everything else in this discussion, kids are a financial choice that the person made. If a person chooses to have children, they must live with the consequenses, both good and bad... that includes financial ones. My disclaimer here is I do my part, I provide probably 30+ free eye exams a year for people who truly hit hard times, can't afford it, whatever. I usually buy them glasses too if they need them. This is on top of the patients that are financially strapped that I can get covered through the state or through Local Lions clubs. And the patients that pay $10/month or whatever on their bill until it is paid. I bust my ass to help people, but only those that help themselves first... the ones who clearly are in a tough bind and working hard to make things better. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #125 January 30, 2007 QuoteBottom line - if someone gets injured beyond their ability to pay, the rest of society is going to pick up the tab one way or another. I think the issue with Douva is NOT that there exists a safety net (read: contingiency plan) for people in poor economic conditions. The issue is the (originally stated) idea that people should plan on the safety net as as their primary means of health care coverage, instead of as a backup option. That is NOT what it was designed for. The whole idea that it's there, therefore don't even try to find a way to get your own coverage is very distasteful to almost everyone. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
