Skydiving Instructors lack of benefits/insurance-Koji

[SBS 0]

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I could live alone, have space and time to myself to unwind after work, always be able to take a shower when I get home, and always get a good night's sleep, or I could endure never having any alone time, never knowing if I'm going to be able to take a shower when I get home, and rolling the dice every night on whether or not I'll get a good night's sleep, all for the sake of having health insurance I may never use. Hmmm?????

Have you never lived with roommates? Good lord! You make it sound like a Nazi Death Camp. I've lived with roommates for 7 years...not because I don't make money, but because I choose to spend it other places than on double rent for living alone. For me that is skydiving, travelling, etc. For another, it may be insurance. Point is that we make decisions, and nobody puts a gun to anyone's head and tells them that they have to be a skydiving instructor without benefits. They didn't put a gun to my head when that was my life, and I didn't hold anyone accountable but myself. I'm not sitting on a high horse telling other people how to live, I am speaking as someone who was there, made my decisions and lived with them.

-s

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Douva 0]

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And, Douva....having made the decision to go from making close to 6 figures to go back to school and make the conscious choices that I have - I'm more than qualified to talk about the real world.

You never answered my question about whether or not you're paying all of your living expenses out of that $12,000, but I'm assuming from this comment that you're very likely subsidizing your income with money from your savings. That isn't an option for most people who make $12,000 a year.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[ladyskydiver 0]

No...no savings account. I used that to pay off bills before I made the choice to go to school.

It's simple...when looking at a purchase - is it something I want or need? If it's something I want, can I afford it without putting it on plastic? If so and it won't cut into other bills, ok...I'll get it. If it will cut into other bills or I can't afford it without plastic, I'll pass until I can afford to buy it without plastic.

If it's something I need, it's bought and I figure out a way to pay for it. If it means that I ask for an extra night at work or go without something else so be it.

Again...it's about choices, Douva. As SBS stated...having roommates - even if you don't want them to help pay expenses, walking (in nicer weather, of course) instead of driving, using public transportation, etc. There are ways to cut expenses and thereby free up money.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[Douva 0]

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just curious why you seem to have such a harsh view on those who choose to think about their future? Twice now you have cut on those who plan and try to improve their condition? (granted wildcard was maybe a bit over the top and grumpy being post call..). but you try to empathize with those without .... all the while dismissing him as a whiny "six figured" playboy type. Guess what? It's an ignorant view.

I have a harsh view on people who are half-way up the financial ladder but choose to look at the people on the bottom rung and say, "If I'm doing it, why can't you?" It particularly irks me when people with small paychecks but outside sources of income try to use their small paychecks to lend themselves false credibility when they criticize people who are truly in poor financial shape. I equate it to the white man who likes to run his mouth about how there is no racism or sexism anymore--How does he know? I see a lot of people throwing out numbers that don't really apply to them, but the truth is, they don't really know. They're preaching theories to people whose poor financial situations are realities.

EDITED TO ADD: I also have a harsh view on all the fear mongering that goes on regarding health insurance.

If you get sick or injured and don't have health insurance, your life is RUINED! You must get health insurance, no matter what the monetary cost or impact on your life!

It's a load of horse shit. If you can afford health insurance without SERIOUSLY impacting your life, get it. If buying health insurance is going to require a serious, negative lifestyle change, take your chances without it.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[ladyskydiver 0]

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I have a harsh view on people who are half-way up the financial ladder but choose to look at the people on the bottom rung and say, "If I'm doing it, why can't you?" It particularly irks me when people with small paychecks but outside sources of income try to use their small paychecks to lend themselves false credibility when they criticize people who are truly in poor financial shape. I equate it to the white man who likes to run his mouth about how there is no racism or sexism anymore--How does he know? I see a lot of people throwing out numbers that don't really apply to them, but the truth is, they don't really know. They're preaching theories to people whose poor financial situations are realities.

You know....you are so totally not worth my time/energy in this conversation. Peace out!

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[Douva 0]

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No...no savings account. I used that to pay off bills before I made the choice to go to school.

It's simple...when looking at a purchase - is it something I want or need? If it's something I want, can I afford it without putting it on plastic? If so and it won't cut into other bills, ok...I'll get it. If it will cut into other bills or I can't afford it without plastic, I'll pass until I can afford to buy it without plastic.

If it's something I need, it's bought and I figure out a way to pay for it. If it means that I ask for an extra night at work or go without something else so be it.

Again...it's about choices, Douva. As SBS stated...having roommates - even if you don't want them to help pay expenses, walking (in nicer weather, of course) instead of driving, using public transportation, etc. There are ways to cut expenses and thereby free up money.

Having roommates is fine, if you need to do so to meet your living expenses, but it's not always the best option, and I think it would be silly, in most cases, to put yourself in a situation where you don't at least have your own bedroom, for the sole purpose of affording health insurance.

Also, I'd still like for you to answer my question--Do you have any outside sources of income (family money, free place to live, student aid, etc.)? If not, bravo on your minimalist existence, but I still doubt your lifestyle would work for most people not in a collegiate setting. And I have even stronger doubts that it would work for someone with children.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[tsalnukt 1]

Can you give us the company you used or a place to find companies, etc, etc. I would totally get it I just thought it was too expensive. Is it just injury insurance or does it cover regular doctor visits and stuff like that? Any help would be great.

[NWFlyer 2]

www.ehealthinsurance.com is a great place to compare options.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[skybytch 259]

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But I still believe if you can afford to skydive, you can afford insurance. Those who skydive without it have chosen not to spend their limited income on insurance, but they *can* afford it. They are choosing not to.

I disagree. For many people health insurance costs more than what they would spend on skydiving in any given month and in most months they get absolutely nothing out of the money they pay the insurance company.

I've watched skydiving get more and more expensive over the past 17 years. One of the things that bothers me most about today compared to when I started is the "yuppification" of the sport - it's gotten so expensive that only people who make over a certain amount of money can afford to do it. Telling people that if they don't spend $2000+ per year on medical insurance they shouldn't skydive seems to me to be yet another thing that will put jumping out of reach of an awful lot of people.

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I'm not going to tell someone how to spend their money, but I'm also not going to have a lot of sympathy when someone has massive medical bills from a skydiving incident because they chose not to get insurance.

I'm with you on that and I haven't had medical insurance since 2003. I think that people who jump without medical insurance (or the financial resources to pay for any needed medical care up front themselves) should actively work to limit their risk factors (ie don't swoop, don't do big ways, jump big canopies, not jump when they are at less than 100% mental/physical capacity, not jump when conditions are less than perfect, be anal about gear maintainence, don't do tandems, etc). They should also be prepared to spend the rest of their lives, if necessary, paying off any medical bills they run up because of their choice to skydive without medical insurance.

Just like skydiving in general, jumping without insurance can be a calculated risk. Yes, someone who actively works to control their risk factors can still get hurt; shit happens. But they are, imho, less likely to get hurt than those who take more risks are and therefore have less need to spend ridiculous amounts of money every month for something they are less likely to use.

[SBS 0]

Did you want everyone's full financials to qualify them for this discussion? Or would you like to just continue to impose what seem to equate to unfair judgements?

Technically, what I said was not that they have to do it because I can...I said that I was there, made my choices and lived with them...I expect you and everyone else to do the same.

I tore my ACL a few years ago and it was paid for with workmans comp that I had paid into. Had I not had that, I would not have held anyone else responsible or thought that anyone owed me anything for making the decision to be a professional skydiver. I can say this with certainty, because I forgot that I had WC at first and came to and was ok with the realization that I was going to have to pay for this out of my pocket. It was only later that I was reminded that it was going to be covered.

-S

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[skydivermom 0]

I ended up taking a trip to the ER shortly after my first AFF1 jump. I had a panic attack, I was not injured. We did have coverage that took care of most of my bills, and I paid the rest off over time. During that time, I did not quit skydiving. Even if we hadn't had ins., that bill would have been paid and I would have continued jumping. When I made the payment arrangements, the lady I spoke with expressed that she was grateful someone was making an effort to get their bill paid. I worked in the billing department of a medical office for several years, so I understood exactly where she was coming from.

Some people may have quit jumping altogether until everything was paid in full, but I am a firm believer in balance. It sounds like that is what most of you are saying. I don't think anybody believes that only those with health insurance should have the privilege to enjoy potentially dangerous activities, and it doesn't sound like anyone on here is expecting to hand off their responsiblities to anyone else.

Health insurance is a double-edged sword and a touchy subject. My father-in-law just had open heart surgery a few years ago and he's covered by two insurances. His portion alone is still over 30K. When the bill gets up that high, it may as well be 100K. I'm sure he'll do what he can to take care of that debt, but he doesn't have a lot of years left and I would hate to see him spend the rest of them agonizing over it.

Not trying to add to the controversy here, just stating some personal experiences.

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[SBS 0]

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I think that people who jump without medical insurance (or the financial resources to pay for any needed medical care up front themselves) should actively work to limit their risk factors (ie don't swoop, don't do big ways, jump big canopies, not jump when they are at less than 100% mental/physical capacity, not jump when conditions are less than perfect, be anal about gear maintainence, don't do tandems, etc). They should also be prepared to spend the rest of their lives, if necessary, paying off any medical bills they run up because of their choice to skydive without medical insurance.

EXACTLY! It sucks and it's hard to swallow, but that is the reality!

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[skybytch 259]

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I tore my ACL a few years ago and it was paid for with workmans comp that I had paid into.

To bring this back on topic, was that at Perris? I know they used to offer WC to instructors if the instructor wanted to pay into it; do you know if they still do?

[SBS 0]

It was at Elsinore. I never heard about WC at Perris, but don't know if it was something that may have been offered to the full-timers or if I just didn't know.

-S

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Douva 0]

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Just like skydiving in general, jumping without insurance can be a calculated risk. Yes, someone who actively works to control their risk factors can still get hurt; shit happens.

I agree. When I didn't have health insurance, it was always in the back of my mind when considering swooping and other higher risk activities. Since most of the high medical bills I've seen in this sport have been from low turns, I chose to refrain. But each person calculates the risks for himself or herself. It's not anyone else's job to tell somebody what he or she should or shouldn't be doing with or without insurance.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[tetra316 0]

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Can you give us the company you used or a place to find companies, etc, etc. I would totally get it I just thought it was too expensive. Is it just injury insurance or does it cover regular doctor visits and stuff like that? Any help would be great.

I went with blue cross/blue shield. Getting my personal policy was quite a bit cheaper than going cobra or getting the college policy when I went back to school. The coverage is great, better actually than my previous employer provided coverage. Preventative is 100% covered, doc visits only have a very small copay, perscriptions are almost all covered. $5000 ded is less than a $100 a month and $500 ded runs about $135 month. But then I'm younger with no existing conditions/kids etc.

[Douva 0]

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Did you want everyone's full financials to qualify them for this discussion?

No, just the people who use their financials as the basis for their arguments. And I don't need the full financials; I just need full disclosure. If you're going to say, "My paycheck is for such-and-such amount, and I can afford health insurance; therefore, anyone can afford health insurance," you need to disclose whether or not you have any outside sources of income and exactly what living expenses you're paying out of that paycheck. Also, you should disclose if you're racking up debt, on the assumption that you'll pay it back when you get out of school and get a higher paying job. By making these disclosures, everyone knows you're actually comparing apples to apples.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[SBS 0]

I believe you got that, decided for yourself that it wasn't accurate information, and continued to pound on her. That's why I ask.

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[sunshine 2]

Douva, i agree with most of what you are saying, so keep it up. I hate not having insurance, but i simply cannot afford it. I admit i do live alone, but my rent in my studio apartment is cheaper than anything i would pay for a bigger place with a roommate. I have been looking for a different job that offers health insurance and still pays about the same, but no luck so far.

Skydiving has been cut way down. I jump maybe 25 times a year now cause i simply can't afford it. Hell i work my ass off on the weekends packing just to make enough to cover my normal living expenses.

I guess to most people i'm irresponsible for not having insurance. I do have a fulltime job, i pack on the weekends, and i go to school. When i go to the doctor, i have to set up payment planst, but i DO pay my bills. But i guess none of that means anything since i'm just one of those losers with no insurance.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[SBS 0]

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I guess to most people i'm irresponsible for not having insurance.

Nope! You are irresponsible if you get hurt doing something that is risky and expect not to be held responsible for the bills.

-S

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Douva 0]

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I guess to most people i'm irresponsible for not having insurance.

Nope! You are irresponsible if you get hurt doing something that is risky and expect not to be held responsible for the bills.

-S

If someone has the means to pay their medical bills, even if it's a financial hardship, that person should absolutely do so. But if a person's medical bills are five times what he or she might ever be able to pay for a house, that person may have to explore other options.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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I believe you got that, decided for yourself that it wasn't accurate information, and continued to pound on her. That's why I ask.

She said she makes less than $12,000 a year, but she hasn't said whether she has other income or is racking up debt. I continue to pound her because I don't believe she's living on near poverty wages and paying nearly $2,000 per year for health insurance, without either outside income or debt.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[SBS 0]

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If someone has the means to pay their medical bills, even if it's a financial hardship, that person should absolutely do so. But if a person's medical bills are five times what he or she might ever be able to pay for a house, that person may have to explore other options.

Like write them off completely? Screw the doctor that saved their lives...it's their god given right to skydive, and it's his god given responsiblity to use his hard earned education to treat this person without payment. As nice as it would be to be able to walk away from them completely, I can't buy into that mode of thought.

-S

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[SBS 0]

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She said she makes less than $12,000 a year, but she hasn't said whether she has other income or is racking up debt. I continue to pound her because I don't believe she's living on near poverty wages and paying nearly $2,000 per year for health insurance, without either outside income or debt.

Right...cause her motivation to lie is so clear...

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I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Douva 0]

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If someone has the means to pay their medical bills, even if it's a financial hardship, that person should absolutely do so. But if a person's medical bills are five times what he or she might ever be able to pay for a house, that person may have to explore other options.

Like write them off completely? Screw the doctor that saved their lives...it's their god given right to skydive, and it's his god given responsiblity to use his hard earned education to treat this person without payment. As nice as it would be to be able to walk away from them completely, I can't buy into that mode of thought.

-S

Assume, hypothetically, a person making $20,000 per year owes $500,000 in medical bills. In your idealistic view of the world, what should that person do? Rob a bank? Kill off a loved one? Become an indentured servant?

Why do you think America has bankruptcy laws? To protect chronic spenders?

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.