Question for Riggers

[jacketsdb23 49]

In response to the poll about whether you'd cut away a perfect main near repack time, I was wondering if any of you riggers have opened up a reserve for repack and found something that scared the crap out of you. Maybe something that would leave you to believe that the reserve would have malfunctioned if it had been used. Thanks for the responses.

In a related experience - I saw someone practice there EP's on the ground during repack time and they could not pull the cut away handle. For whatever reason the cable would just not come out of the housing. The rig was sent back to the Manufacturer. Scared the crap out of me.

Thanks.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[labrys 0]

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For whatever reason the cable would just not come out of the housing.

That isn't a very complex system. There was no one who could determine why the cable / handle wouldn't clear? I find that hard to grasp.

Owned by Remi #?

[jerry81 10]

Not a rigger myself, but yes...

[stratostar 5]

I opened up a "modern" (break of day) rig last year and the locking stow wouldn't release as it should, I looked it over and over again, didn't see anything wrong as to why it wouldn't perform as it should, went and got two master riggers to look it over, without telling them why I wanted them to look it over, they found nothing wrong as well by looking it over, but everyone about shit their shorts when I grabbed the freebag and pulled like a mofo on it, it remained a bag lock and took two of us pulling and two people to hold the HC to get it to unlock after dragging two grown adults around the loft riding the HC. All of our best guess, is to much canopy in the molar folds.
I also know the rig had been packed by a non rated rigging prospect.
IMHO had this been deployed the jumper would have bounced.

Also found (on same type HC) two wadded piles of bridle (3ft a side maybe more) stuffed on the top of the "ears" under the side flaps, I guess it would have worked fine, but sure looked like shit and was not per the manual, the aad was also repacked without a 4 yr or new batt.
I was very surprised to see what loft it had been pack in last, seeing how it is down the street from the factory and has a well known rigger running the loft.
For the record though this well known riggers seal and name was not on the card, must have been one of the flunkies.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[councilman24 37]

How would too much canopy in the ears keep the lines from coming out of the locking stows?

I had a rig that had been kept in a trunk all summer because the guy did instruction at the local DZ after work. It took 35 lbs of force to pull the free bag off the stack of canopy AFTER the locking stows were out. The canopy had stuck to the coated interior of the free bag. In a low speed malfunction this would have caused a delay in deployment. In a high speed malfunction may have never been noticed.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 37]

If you've been rigging for very long you've seen mistakes. Most of them are minor, a different interpretation of the manual, an unusual way of doing things, but usually not fatal. But if you've been rigging even longer you may have seen a fatal one. See above post. Might well have been fatal if a low altitude and low speed cutaway.

I've seen some other bad ones but none absolutly fatal. These include two 550lb lines being held by on turn of GUTTED 550. On each side. Home made four line release lanyard from the wrong material and tied wrong. A square reserve that failed a tensile test at 3-5 pounds, twice. Whether this canopy would have been landable nobody knows.

Hmm, I know there are more but it's too late to think of them.

The idea of using your last chance to live when not required is stupid, IMHO. I appreciate a jumpers trust of their rigger. But we are people too and make mistakes. And reserves malfunction too. This idea that reserves are infallable and riggers are gods is silly. Some people are lacking a respect for the risks inherent in the sport and the gear. We've got used to people going hundreds and even thousands of jumps with out a main malfunction. But those of us in the sport a little longer remember when malfunctions were very common. Sometimes other systems but often canopy opening malfunctions. And remember, your reserve more likely resembles those early 1990's mains.

Not to mention you risk damaging both your reserve and main, put unneeded wear and tear on all of the components involved, and make the riggers job harder.

If you want to do a cutaway seek out a three canopy rig set up for it. If you want to jump your reserve put in a main container or rent a demo reserve with a bridle attachment.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[stratostar 5]

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How would too much canopy in the ears keep the lines from coming out of the locking stows

Terry,

That was just a guess, with the thinking ,so much there maybe they need to use a pull up cord to close it??? I have no idea, really. I have never seen a locking stows hold lines like that, the more tension applied, the line bites wouldn't budge. The pack job it's self "looked normal".

All the other riggers at first thought I was just messing with them and not pulling very hard, till they took a turn at it.

I have posted before about this Jr. rigger doing work without supervision, and doing shit like taking a rigging kit and seal press to a pond swoop meet without the knowlage of the kit owner and doing repacks for those who took a dip.

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The idea of using your last chance to live when not required is stupid, IMHO. I appreciate a jumpers trust of their rigger. But we are people too and make mistakes. And reserves malfunction too. This idea that reserves are infallable and riggers are gods is silly. Some people are lacking a respect for the risks inherent in the sport and the gear.

Couldn't agree more. More people need to pick their rigger as if their life depended on it, duh, it dose.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[DougH 270]

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Couldn't agree more. More people need to pick their rigger as if their life depended on it, duh, it dose.

I chose my rigger based on reputation and number of saves, but I later observed how uncanny his attention to detail is, almost spooky. He could notice an untacked hard housing at 1000 paces!!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[jacketsdb23 49]

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The idea of using your last chance to live when not required is stupid, IMHO. I appreciate a jumpers trust of their rigger. But we are people too and make mistakes. And reserves malfunction too.

I agree as well. One of the points I was trying to make with this thread is that things do happen and cutting away a good main does not guarantee a good reserve.

In fact, I may be in the other extreme (which can be just as bad) in that I would want to keep my main if I thought I could at all fix it. With the larger canopy I started on I always thought I would cut a line during a lineover on my main. I don't think I have that option now with the higher wingloading. But I can think of several "malfunctions" that people have cut away that I second guess. Unless I'm in that situation I'll never know. Step through is one that comes to mind.

Again, thanks for the reply's.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[skydiverek 61]

"Has anyone discovered a "fatal" rigging error on a reserve?" thread here:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1063272#1063272

[beezyshaw 0]

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All of our best guess, is to much canopy in the molar folds

I don't see that as a likely part of the problem here. I'd think that too much canopy in the ears of the bag would actually reduce the tension on the locking stows because less canopy would be down at the opening of the freebag. What I would think the problem is related to is the free stow cord itself; it was either too short or not made of a material with enough elasticity to properly stretch some to allow the locking stows to release. Was the length of the free stow checked against the mfr's specs? And the amount of stretch to the bungee material, did it seem normal?

[stratostar 5]

Sorry you guys I said "molar folds" but should have said "S" folds in the mouth of the bag, sorry it was late nite when I posted and too late to edit it now.
The loop was factory issiue and seemed normal.
Hope that clears up what I was trying to say.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[councilman24 37]

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I chose my rigger based on reputation and number of saves, but I later observed how uncanny his attention to detail is, almost spooky.

Reputation good, attention to detail good.

Number of saves? Just a function of how long he's been rigging, how much he does, and how bad of packers his customers are.

I've actually lost track of how many saves I've had. Some I didn't hear about for months because they were at boogies or other DZ's and they had someone else repack it. And I haven't had many lately because mains don't malfunction as often as they did in the 80's. I watched one friend and customer cutaway from about 200' away under canopy. It opened nicely and I later asked him what he was thinking as he cutaway. He said he thought "O boy, I hope you did good Terry." I told he might have been better off talking to someone else.

What you should ask is number of reserve malfunctions!

I've actually had one. But it wasn't my fault. The guy was tumbling as his diapered round deployed. Others who were there believe he was pulling on his FXC housing instead of the R.C. after he couldn't find his main R.C. and his FXC fired. (Not a student, but an older, inexperienced jumper who had a history of performance problems.) The phantom blew up at terminal with the lower lateral band severed and canopy torn to the apex. The guy survived (but broken up) a runway landing. It took a long time for me to convince myself that I wasn't at fault. The jumper didn't blame me and neither did the factory upon inspection. I suspect that it was either a line over that cut through or asymetrical loading due to him tumbling into the lines.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[DougH 270]

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What you should ask is number of reserve malfunctions!.

I should have been clear. the number of saves, considering no major reserve malfunctions, and no loses.
But your right, a 500 saves looks a lot worse if there were 10 major malfunctions to go with them.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P