General Q on Plane Crashes

[skydvrblonde 0]

Can anyone tell me (with reasonable evidence) if skydiving is seeing a higher occurrence of plane crash related deaths this year than normal, or is this a sort of "typical" year (which just happens to affect me A LOT.)

???

Thanks, guys, just feeling a little shorted these days...

Lena

Once you visit Skydive Lost Prairie
Your heart will never leave.

Boogie with us... www.skydivelostprairie.com

[ladydyver 0]

Lena,
I don't know the answer, but know that you have more than your fair share of losses this year. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

[Elisha 1]

Well, I have more questions:

1. Someone mentioned that Caravan's glide well. Why would it go into a nose dive?

2. What is icing and why is it bad per se?

3. If icing is bad, then why does it not really affect jet planes which routinely fly way over 20K?

Thanks.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Well, I have more questions:

1. Someone mentioned that Caravan's glide well. Why would it go into a nose dive?

2. What is icing and why is it bad per se?

3. If icing is bad, then why does it not really affect jet planes which routinely fly way over 20K?

Thanks.

1. Planes that break in half aren't very aerodynamic.

2. Ice builds up on the wings. Also not very aerodynamic. I'm sure someone who is more technical can explain it better than me.

3. Not sure how they're designed differently, but this is a known issue with Caravans, and is one of the reason that the skydiving market may find many more available as freight companies (like FedEx) that use them for their short-haul transport are taking them out of service.

Hey, Lena - I don't know whether this year is worse but it sure feels worse (this year plus last year). There's a lot of jump plane accident info at this site ... I just started poking around it so I don't know the stats but I'm sure we can all learn a lot from it. I know that I don't give it enough thought and right now it's all I can think about.

http://www.diverdriver.com/Accidents/accidents.htm

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[diablopilot 2]

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1. Someone mentioned that Caravan's glide well. Why would it go into a nose dive?

1. Icing can do a few things to an A/C.

a. Increase the weight and change the CG (center of gravity) of the aircraft to one that is counter productive to stable flight.

b. Can degrade the ability of the wing to produce lift, and the horizontal stabilizer's ability to control pitch.

c. Can jam, or incapacitate the flight control surfaces.

d. Can degrade the ability of prop to produce thrust.

2. Icing is the acumulation of ice upon the airframe.

3. There is less moisture at jetway altitudes and large comercial airliners have specific systems to prevent icing.

Caravan's, if equipped have minimal icing systems, only designed to handle very light icing conditions. Very few jumpships have functional icing systems, if any at all, as they are not generaly useful in normal jump opperations.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[johndh1 0]

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Can anyone tell me (with reasonable evidence) if skydiving is seeing a higher occurrence of plane crash related deaths this year than normal, or is this a sort of "typical" year (which just happens to affect me A LOT.)

I was thinking the same thing about ballooning yesterday. I'm sure the statistics are out there, but I don't know who would have them officially separating jump-planes from other GA, except someone who had an interest in the numbers - what I mean is, I doubt the FAA or NTSB makes the official stipulation.

Roll Tide Roll

[quade 3]

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2. What is icing and why is it bad per se?

3. If icing is bad, then why does it not really affect jet planes which routinely fly way over 20K?

I hate the fact that people keep speculating about icing.

Ice, for the most part, happens in clouds. This was a VFR flight.

Further, according to this article;

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Weather conditions were good for the flight, officials said.

PLEASE stop speculating.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Elisha 1]

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2. What is icing and why is it bad per se?

3. If icing is bad, then why does it not really affect jet planes which routinely fly way over 20K?

I hate the fact that people keep speculating about icing.

Ice, for the most part, happens in clouds. This was a VFR flight.

Further, according to this article;

Quote

Weather conditions were good for the flight, officials said.

PLEASE stop speculating.

Sorry, but I was NOT speculating. I was asking a general question relating to plane crashes per the thread title, as I am not an aeronautical expert. Icing was brought up by someone else on another thread. I was asking questions relating to that. I don't appreciate being falsely accused.

JP,
Thanks for the answers.

[quade 3]

Speculation not by you, but by others.

. . . these are difficult times for all of us.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skydvrblonde 0]

Your thoughts are understood, but my intention was to discuss General Aviation pitfalls. Therefore, curiousity about icing is quite valid.

Icing will often keep planes from flying. Yes, he may have INTENDED to fly VFR, but conditions can change, especially given the meteorological conditions present two nights ago south of Mount Rainier.

Now, as per my original question, thank you to those who have posted and are helping me make sense of this. I have read through numerous months of FAA stats this summer and am amazed at the number of plane crashes that occur annually. I also realize that as more planes fly and I know/care about more people, I'll have to deal with this situation more than I care to. But, I feel the same way about cars and the same way about cancer.

Any other wise observations regarding general aviation? I'm all ears. (and a big stomach knot)

Lena

Once you visit Skydive Lost Prairie
Your heart will never leave.

Boogie with us... www.skydivelostprairie.com

[skydvrblonde 0]

Icing is rarely found over 20k. It requires specific conditions for its creation.

Once you visit Skydive Lost Prairie
Your heart will never leave.

Boogie with us... www.skydivelostprairie.com

[quade 3]

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Icing is rarely found over 20k. It requires specific conditions for its creation.

Sorry for the outburst, but the entire thing today has me a little upset.

Generally speaking there are two types of ice; rime and clear.

Rime ice is accumulated in a cloud. Think of this type of ice as being similar to the ice you find in a non-self-defrosting freezer. That's also approximately what it looks like -- white, milky and rough. The air is cold and moist (think very cold fog) and it builds up in very unaerodynamic shapes that not only add weight to the plane but also tend to screw up the airflow. Generally speaking this is fairly predictable in terms of temperatures (-2 °C (28 °F) and -8 °C (18 °F)) and the fact you absolutely must be inside a cloud. The solution is to try to get out of the cloud to either warmer temperatures below where it can melt or less humid air above where the ice can sublimate.

Clear ice is formed by water (rain) that is chilled below freezing falling from a cloud (or possibly within it) and hitting a surface. Upon contact with the surface it immediately solidifies. This can accumulate extremely rapidly and genrally happens under rain clouds at certain temperatures. Because it accumulates so quickly it may not be possible to "outclimb" it and it may also not be possible to decend to warmer air below as the below freezing temperatures tend to go all the way to the surface.

Both types of ice -may- be dealt with by the use of deicing equipment on board, but it can fail or it can be overwhelmed by the amounts of ice being accumulated. Generally speaking, even if you have deicing equipment, you really want to avoid having to use it -- ever. The absolute best defense when it comes to ice is to avoid it at all cost.

All of the above said, there is really no indication that ice was a factor in the recent accident. For anyone reading this, please wait until the official reports come out and do not speculate.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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Any other wise observations regarding general aviation?

Read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest Gann.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skydvrblonde 0]

Generally speaking there are two types of ice; rime and clear.

**and mixed, a combo of the two** I'm a meteorologist, I just didn't have it in me to write a dissertation on icing.

Once you visit Skydive Lost Prairie
Your heart will never leave.

Boogie with us... www.skydivelostprairie.com

[quade 3]

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**and mixed, a combo of the two**

Sorry if that wasn't obvious by the description given. Yes, if flying in a cloud and there is also rain in the cloud that does certainly happen. I was giving the two extreme examples of "black and white", but certainly grey does exist as well.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airgord 1]

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Any other wise observations regarding general aviation?

Read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest Gann.

Great read.

[brianfry713 0]

I haven't looked at the skydiving plane crash stats, but driverdiver's and the NTSB websites would be a good place to start.

As far as icing, I'm a low time non-instrument rated private pilot, but here's how I understand it. I have no idea what caused the recent Caravan crash, but the NTSB usually does a pretty good job of figuring it out, it just takes a while.

An aircraft is either certified for flight into known icing conditions or it is not. Most small GA and skydiving planes aren't, a lot of big planes and airliners are. If an aircraft is not approved for known icing, it is prohibited from intentionally entering it. If flying into clouds or visible moisture, you must make sure that the temperature is above freezing or risk icing.

The deicing and anti-icing equipment on approved aircraft includes heated elements, fluid surface deicers, and pressurized boots. Even all that may not be enough to prevent severe icing from occurring on any aircraft during certain conditions.

Weather forcasts and observations sometimes can tell you where icing conditions are likely to occur. You can sometimes see and feel the ice and reduction in lift if you pick some up during flight.