divnswoop 0 #26 February 6, 2006 QuoteYou really should realize that your thoughts on rigging are exactly that, your thoughts. You don't sound like an un-safe rigger, but that doesn't mean that another rigger that does things differently is un-safe either. I think the REAL problem is that PD refuses to take white reserves out of production! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #27 February 6, 2006 QuoteI think the REAL problem is that PD refuses to take white reserves out of production! But they did publish a letter recommending using caution when jumping a white reserve. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #28 February 6, 2006 QuoteBut they did publish a letter recommending using caution when jumping a white reserve. Ya, but I have it and no one else can see it Especially after I read it and realize it is devastating to my case Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #29 February 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteBut they did publish a letter recommending using caution when jumping a white reserve. Ya, but I have it and no one else can see it Especially after I read it and realize it is devastating to my case Derek I am going to report you to.........................someone! SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #30 February 6, 2006 QuoteSPI published a letter that says that the RSL is a part of the tested rig & should not be removed from the rig. At least 4 tests are done using the RSL. At least 4 may be done without using the RSL. AS-8015-B 4.3.6.2 Breakaway Drop Tests: Eight drops shall be made by a person weighing not more than the maximum operating weight by breaking away from an open and normally functioning main parachute canopy with a vertical velocity of less than 20 FPS (6.1 m/s) at the time of breakaway and actuating the reserve pack within 2 s of the breakaway. If a reserve static line is part of the assembly, no less than 4 of the breakaway drops shall be made with the reserve static line actuating the reserve pack. The parachute canopy must be functionally open within the time +2 s, or altitude, obtained in 4.3.6 from the time of breakaway. Again, Should does not mean it can't be removed. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #31 February 6, 2006 Quote Hey Hook...what's the 'law' regarding someone other than a master rigger altering the configuration Airtwardo, First the alteration thing. No matter what Derek says, he has a regional ruling by a very non-caring inspector out there in Colorado! That issue is still pending in his region. To expand upon that, if work performed by himself shows up, let's say in my region where the ruling is opposite of his, that work would be considered a violation.( we are talking main parachutes here) Regardless, alterations and/or modifications to a certifcated H/C, shall only be done by a Master Rigger with authorization by the manufacturer or the FAA. I never really thought about it, but removing the RSL is considered an alteration. Think about this, if installing one is an alteration, so would be removing one! To clarify, please read the attachment and also pay close attention to paragragh 13. http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8300/volume3/media/3_136_00.pdf BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #32 February 6, 2006 One "bab" thing I've seen on Javelin's with the RSL "removed" is this... when the rig is packed, the RSL lanyard is held in place with Velcro, the hook being on the back side of the front reserve riser and the pile on the lanyard. I've seen Jav's where someone has removed the RSL lanyard and the, now exposed, hook portion of said Velcro is exposed and "tears up" the front face of the rear reserve riser when packed and things move around a bit. Also, I think cutting the guide rings off is a bit extreme. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #33 February 6, 2006 On my old javelin, when I first had the rsl removed, the rigger covered the hook with a peice of pile. To answer the question, "Why remove the guide rings?": After a couple of repacks, I noticed that the guide rings were causing a dent in the reserve flap. On the next repack, I had the guide rings removed. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #34 February 6, 2006 What is your problem? Are you so egocentric to think your the ONLY rigger worth his salt? Cripes....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #35 February 6, 2006 Quote On my old javelin, when I first had the rsl removed, the rigger covered the hook with a peice of pile. To answer the question, "Why remove the guide rings?": After a couple of repacks, I noticed that the guide rings were causing a dent in the reserve flap. On the next repack, I had the guide rings removed. Sorry for being un-clear, my bad... what I meant to say was I've seen Jav's with the RSL lanyard removed, but who ever did it, did not cover the hook portion of the Velcro on the reserve riser with a stirp of pile, thus the hook tore up the other reserve riser. As for removing the rings, yep, they'll do just that... but technically, its a modification, but I'd agree, that removing them wouldn't likely change the airworthyness of the rig as so long as an RSL wasn't re-installed sans the guide rings (that's another topic that's been beat to death in another thread too)... but, but others up post have already talked to the other aspects of doing so and I don't want to get involved in that knife fight... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #36 February 6, 2006 Quote QuoteWhat is your problem? Are you so egocentric to think your the ONLY rigger worth his salt? Cripes.... No, just making a valid point! What is your problem with that? MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deathtrap 0 #37 February 6, 2006 QuoteThe Javelin h/c is mfg. with an RSL system as a standart item on the rig. The order form does not let you to choose Yes RSL or No RSL like with RI, RWS or Mirage & other h/c. Sun Path does not approve the removing of the RSL from the rig. I saw Javelins that the rigger removed the lanyard & I saw also that a rigger cut the 2 rings on the reserve container top flap which guided the reserve ripcord cable & the RSL ringe end. The RSL is a SAFETY BACKUP system which might save the owner's life on the next jump. I would like to here from you Riggers. Safe Rigging !!! So the jist of this is that to remain "legal" in Shlomo's mind, you must jump your Javelin with the RSL installed, but not connected. Since cutting away with the RSL connected would remove the RSL from the H/C system, thereby breaking the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #38 February 6, 2006 Main canopy repair has traditionaly always been a task that seinor riggers have conducted. This includes patches, large and small, and linesets. Your repeated arguments on this website suggest that you think that's not acceptable. If not, why test for it in the practical? The argument is bogus from a qualifications standpoint. Besides the fact I've encountered Master riggers I wouldn't trust to repair a pair of pants, and Seinor riggers harness work I've jumped, how do you account for the countles repairs done and jumped on main or reserve canopies done by NON rated sewers at manufacturer's facilities. I fail to understand your vendetta against those that are seriously interested in bettering their understanding and abilities in rigging. For lack of any better explanation, I ask for one.... FWIW many FAA officials have a disagreement with your interpertation of the regulations. In more than one part of the country. Edit: Allow me to apologize for being a bit more than reactionary in my original reply. My sentiments are the same as they were, but I shouldn't phrase it as an attack......my bad.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #39 February 6, 2006 QuoteSPI published a letter that says that the RSL is a part of the tested rig & should not be removed from the rig. Once again, would you post a copy of this letter from SPI? I have not been able to find it on their web site or in any of their manuals. QuoteThe RWS approved the packing of others reserves as well in the Vector 2 h/c long time ago. Where did you find documentation that RWS approved the packing of other reserves in the Vector 2? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #40 February 6, 2006 QuoteNo matter what Derek says, he has a regional ruling by a very non-caring inspector out there in Colorado! That issue is still pending in his region. The FAA Inspector is not a "very non-caring inspector" by any stretch of the imagination. The FAR says what it says, regardless of your efforts to read it differently. He follows the letter of the law and agrees that if it changes, he will enforce it as written. I would think he would take offense at being call "non-caring". According to the FAA, the matter is no longer pending, it is settled. No 're-training' necessary Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #41 February 6, 2006 Quote Main canopy repair has traditionaly always been a task that seinor riggers have conducted. This includes patches, large and small, and linesets. Your repeated arguments on this website suggest that you think that's not acceptable. If not, why test for it in the practical? I do not test for it in the praticals that I give, nor do I know anyone that tests senior rigger applicants with a Master rigger enviroment. Quote The argument is bogus from a qualifications standpoint. Besides the fact I've encountered Master riggers I wouldn't trust to repair a pair of pants, and Seinor riggers harness work I've jumped, how do you account for the countles repairs done and jumped on main or reserve canopies done by NON rated sewers at manufacturer's facilities. What qualifications do you have to call what I have posted bogus? I have posted facts regarding rigging, no more -no less. I agree that there are Master AND Senior riggers out there that have a lot to be desired in their rigging work. That is another topic for discussion. The manufacturers thing is covered under the FAR's. So be it. Most of those people do one thing and one thing only; sew! That work is hopefully inspected by the manufacturer. Quote fail to understand your vendetta against those that are seriously interested in bettering their understanding and abilities in rigging. For lack of any better explanation, I ask for one.... Firstly, I do not have a Vendetta. I do have problems with people understanding the FAR's long enough to test for their Senior certificate and upon receiving it, totally forgetting the FAR's and doing whatever they please. The other problem is I have applicants that come in and say"I thought I could do that! I read on DZ.com that I could." I then have to explain the differences! I believe that informing the applicant correctly is a betterment of rigging. Quote FWIW many FAA officials have a disagreement with your interpertation of the regulations. In more than one part of the country. I know of only one, that is in Colorado. In fact, there is a group in OK City working to clarify 65.111. FYI - 65.111 is written to clarify packing only as I found out Friday. This is the pack, maintain, and alter thing that Derek believes in. The "pack is self evident,"maintaining" is like cleaning and inspecting, and "altering" is like changes to the pack job(flat pack to PRO pack) Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #42 February 6, 2006 Quote According to the FAA, the matter is no longer pending, it is settled. No 're-training' necessary Not unless you and I both receive written summary letters from Don! MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #43 February 6, 2006 QuoteFYI - 65.111 is written to clarify packing only as I found out Friday. This is the pack, maintain, and alter thing that Derek believes in. If 65.111 was written to address packing only why does use the terms, "pack, maintain, or alter". It also states that a non-certificated person making the next jump on the main canopy may, "pack, maintain or alter" that canopy. 65.111 Certificate required. (b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person— (3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or QuoteIn fact, there is a group in OK City working to clarify 65.111. Until this group publishes a new version, don't you think we should abide by the one that is now in effect? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #44 February 6, 2006 Quote If 65.111 was written to address packing only why does use the terms, "pack, maintain, or alter". It also states that a non-certificated person making the next jump on the main canopy may, "pack, maintain or alter" that canopy. Sparky, Re-read my earlier post above! I explained it there. Quote Until this group publishes a new version, don't you think we should abide by the one that is now in effect? I do now. The clarification will be for the ones that presently do not abide by the rules. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #45 February 6, 2006 Quote I do not test for it in the praticals that I give, nor do I know anyone that tests senior rigger applicants with a Master rigger enviroment. I was under the impression that sewing a patch was listed in the practical test standard for senior riggers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #46 February 6, 2006 Justin, You are correct. Sewing a canopy patch is part of a practical exam for Senior Riggers. Replacing line sets is not. That (Major repairs) was what I was refering to! MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #47 February 6, 2006 QuoteJustin, You are correct. Sewing a canopy patch is part of a practical exam for Senior Riggers. Replacing line sets is not. That (Major repairs) was what I was refering to! MEL Ok, thanks. I was kinda confused for a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER 0 #48 February 6, 2006 I did not say a word about unsafe riggers or rigging when I start my post. I just want to find out what other riggers think about. I'll open it a little bit. I spoke with Mr. Derek Thomas & Mr. Dave Singer about it & I was told that the Javelin RSL is an integrated part of the h/c. The choice should be on the order form & then the owner can choose if he likes RSL or not. The owner must not put it on the rigger's back, the owner have the option to release the shackle. Maybe you in the USA have a different approach to the "freedom to choose" but that should be the owner when he ordered & not using the rigger for that. What come first? The owner willing or the mgf. Instructions? What will happen if a rigger will remove the RSL from a Javelin & on the next jump the owner could be saved by the removed RSL, how the rigger will feel? What he/she would say? That the owner asked him/her to remove it? I might be the only one to think so? I'm not sure about, try to think about it as an Aviation Rigger & not as an extreme skydiver. Look at the Javelins reserve risers that were damaged by the uncovered RSL riser hook velcro when a "Smart" rigger left it uncovered after he/she removed the RSL lanyard. The removal of the RSL must be approved by the mfg. or by the FAA & it's not !!! As a Master Rigger & as an Instructor I have my rigging policy like: I do not remove RSL from Javelin. I do not pack Javelins without RSL. I do not pack every TSO'd reserve on the market just because it's TSO'd. I do hold the opinion that major repairs & reline on a main canopy must be done by a Master Rigger or the mfg. it's by law & by logic. AAD, SKYHOOK & RSL might save skydivers life but are not a replacement for the best training & the skydiver right response to emergencies. I do believe that Senior & Master rigger must be aware to their limits & abilities. You have your policy not packing any reserve that have an external option to tighten the closing loop like Racers, Reflex & Teardrop & it should be respected!!! Please respect other riggers policy too. Think Twice !!! Safe Rigging !!! Enclosed Sun Path's letter after I got the approval from SPI to publish it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packertom 0 #49 February 6, 2006 Guys, we had a fatality at our DZ a while back... descendant happened to have a javelin... javelin happened to have had the RSL removed... FAA admin noticed this and called Sunpath... Sunpath stated that due to the wording that the RSL is "standard" on all Javelin rigs, it SHOULD NOT be removed... ie.. manufacturer recommends that it stay attached which is the same as it MUST stay attached.. the rigger who removed the lanyard at the request of the owner almost got a letter in his file over this.. the only thing that saved him was the fact that at the time that the lanyard was removed, there was a misunderstanding over what sunpath meant by "standard" and it was a common thing to do on javelins... we were advised that javelins with RSL's removed could keep flying and we could keep repacking them, but if a new one came in and we removed the RSL we were risking our ticket for making a modification to the system not in accordance with the manufacturers instructions due to the word "standard" and the verbal answer from the manufacturer that went along the lines of; the system was tested with it and we want it to remain on... if you want to remove an RSL you will need a field approval from the administrator (work must be done by a master rigger) or a letter from the manufacturer that states that this alteration has been approved (you should keep a hard copy of this letter in your files) or you are definitely risking your ticket and placing yourself in a position that could be labeled (gross negligence)... just some words of advise due to the fact that we've gone through this with the FAA administrator and the manufacturer... just to reinterate... if you remove an RSL from a javelin without written approval of Sunpath or a field approval from the administrator you are placing yourself in a dangerous position. Tom www.applieddeceleration.com[email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com What's YOUR Zombie Plan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #50 February 6, 2006 Just disconnect the damn thing at the shackle. You don't have to "remove" it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
