What's the deal with skyhooks and camera helmets?

[Newbie 0]

Is it inadvisavle (much like a standard RSL) to be using one on camera jumps in case the main snags during a cutaway?

I did try and search on this as i'm sure it must have been covered, but couldn't find anything. If anyone has any links on this discussion i would be keen to read about it.

Thanks all

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[skydiverek 58]

Try this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=434821#434821

Bill Booth posted in it his views on Skyhook and camera jumping.

[Newbie 0]

Thanks mate

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[billbooth 10]

This is a draft of a section of an article I have been asked to write for a skydiving magazine. I am not a skydiving photographer, so this should not be considered instructional...it is only my uneducated opinion. Since it's a question I'm asked all the time, and there are a lot of photographers with real experience here, it thought I'd throw it out for comment and try to learn something.

"Some photographers tell me that they don’t want any kind of RSL because one, or both, main risers might be entangled with their camera equipment when they have to breakaway, and they want time to deal with the situation before they fire their reserve. Think about it. If you breakaway from a 3“G” spinner with helmet entangled risers, you just transferred three times you body weight onto your chin strap. If it holds, and if your neck isn’t broken immediately, exactly how much time do you think you have before you pass out and strangle to death? That’s why most camera helmets have quick releases (which by the way, probably won’t work with much load on them, which is why if you fear you have an entanglement, you must release your camera helmet before you attempt a breakaway). So, if you helmet is entangled, but unbuckled before breakaway, it will leave with the broken away main, and there’s no reason why you wouldn’t want your reserve ”right now”, is there?

If I were a photographer, my greatest fear, especially with those great big burble-producing wings a lot of you wear, would be a reserve pilot chute hesitation, with 15 feet of freebag bridle dancing around next to my camera helmet. Talk about an entanglement waiting to happen. (How many of you have a lot of jumps on an internal spring loaded pilot chute and remember how to "break the burble" at pull time to avoid hesitations?) There are no pilot chute hesitations on a Skyhook breakaway, which means, just like everyone else, you are probably a good deal better off with a Skyhook than without."

[tdog 0]

Thanks for asking... I asked a rigger the same question on Saturday, and I PMed Mr. Booth yesterday and he replied pretty much what he posted here... I guess it is a common question...

I guess there is also a question of how "snag prone" is the helmet, huh.... A FF2 with no external accessories and no still camera, is about as snag prone as my full face RW helmet, and no one has told me to disconnect my Skyhook for that... True, the camera bay lid could open up and cause a snag and the chin cup has some snag points...

I am interested to hear what people say here... When people comment, comment on what type of camera helmet are we discussing, meaning a fully equipped still/video rig with all the toys, or something "clean" with no external catches, like a FF2...

edit... The reason I ask about the type of helmet, Bill said in the other thread, that the way to judge the sucess of an invention in skydiving is to judge if it saved more people than it killed... I wonder if we have an real world stats on skyhooks and cameras????

[Newbie 0]

Quote

This is a draft of a section of an article I have been asked to write for a skydiving magazine. I am not a skydiving photographer, so this should not be considered instructional...it is only my uneducated opinion. Since it's a question I'm asked all the time, and there are a lot of photographers with real experience here, it thought I'd throw it out for comment and try to learn something.

"Some photographers tell me that they don’t want any kind of RSL because one, or both, main risers might be entangled with their camera equipment when they have to breakaway, and they want time to deal with the situation before they fire their reserve. Think about it. If you breakaway from a 3“G” spinner with helmet entangled risers, you just transferred three times you body weight onto your chin strap. If it holds, and if your neck isn’t broken immediately, exactly how much time do you think you have before you pass out and strangle to death? That’s why most camera helmets have quick releases (which by the way, probably won’t work with much load on them, which is why if you fear you have an entanglement, you must release your camera helmet before you attempt a breakaway). So, if you helmet is entangled, but unbuckled before breakaway, it will leave with the broken away main, and there’s no reason why you wouldn’t want your reserve ”right now”, is there?

If I were a photographer, my greatest fear, especially with those great big burble-producing wings a lot of you wear, would be a reserve pilot chute hesitation, with 15 feet of freebag bridle dancing around next to my camera helmet. Talk about an entanglement waiting to happen. (How many of you have a lot of jumps on an internal spring loaded pilot chute and remember how to "break the burble" at pull time to avoid hesitations?) There are no pilot chute hesitations on a Skyhook breakaway, which means, just like everyone else, you are probably a good deal better off with a Skyhook than without."

Thanks Bill, that's what i was pretty much thinking.
Just out of interest, can you let us know which mag this will appear in? I'd like to read the finished article when it's published.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[AndyMan 7]

That's an interesting theory.

Unfortunately helmet entaglements are real problems for camera flyers. History has shown quite clearly that photographers do need time to clear an entanglement. History has also shown quite clearly that entanglements do not tend to break necks.

Yes, I am a photographer and videographer.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[riggerrob 561]

Quote

Thanks for asking... I asked a rigger the same question on Saturday, and I PMed Mr. Booth yesterday and he replied pretty much what he posted here... I guess it is a common question...

I guess there is also a question of how "snag prone" is the helmet, huh.... A FF2 with no external accessories and no still camera, is about as snag prone as my full face RW helmet, and no one has told me to disconnect my Skyhook for that... True, the camera bay lid could open up and cause a snag and the chin cup has some snag points...

I am interested to hear what people say here... When people comment, comment on what type of camera helmet are we discussing, meaning a fully equipped still/video rig with all the toys, or something "clean" with no external catches, like a FF2...

edit... The reason I ask about the type of helmet, Bill said in the other thread, that the way to judge the success of an invention in skydiving is to judge if it saved more people than it killed... I wonder if we have an real world stats on skyhooks and cameras????

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Good point!
If videographers devoted as much time to taping potential snag-points on their helmets - as they do debating on this forum - the incidence of helmet snags would rapidly approach zero.

[diablopilot 2]

There is absolutly no difference in the decision to use a Standard RSL, and SkyHook when it comes to camera helemts. One must treat them the same in that respect.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mdowling 0]

I have read a lot of your posts and respect your opinion. Please explain the last one.

[diablopilot 2]

Thanks for that.

I've explained it before here, but in a nutshell, an RSL of any type and camera helmets do not mix because of the chance of entanglement. When breaking away from a malfunctioned main a camera flyer must have the option of freefaling away from the mess that may involve their helmet. It's one reason cameraflyers open higher for the most part. Of course much attention should be focused on lowering the snag factor of any helmet. Many of the same reasons double as guidelines for CRW or SkySurf.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Pendejo 0]

Mr. Booth,

Please don't take this as me being my normal smartass self. I greatly value your opinion and feel that you experience far out weighs what little I have.

But i'm confused...

If I break away from a 3"G" spinner and the mess becomes entangled with my helmet. How will having a skyhook help me? The turn rate of a 3"G" spin would be very high, and if the main is entangled with my helmet (and is still spinning like in your example) how would deploying a reserve into the mess help the situation? I realize there are many many different situations that can arise and not all of them will have a cookie cutter answer. But in the example you give how would the skyhook be a benefit and not a detriment?

Again, please do not feel that I am just picking apart what you wrote. I truly am trying to understand what you mean. I realize that before impact some chance is better than no chance. What I am talking about is where the video guy has pulled higher (as is usually the case) and has a little time to deal with his situation.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[popsjumper 2]

stickin' my nose in....

bill said...
"That’s why most camera helmets have quick releases (which by the way, probably won’t work with much load on them, which is why if you fear you have an entanglement, you must release your camera helmet before you attempt a breakaway). So, if you helmet is entangled, but unbuckled before breakaway, it will leave with the broken away main, and there’s no reason why you wouldn’t want your reserve ”right now”, is there?"

hope this helps...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mr2mk1g 10]

His position appears to be based on the premise that if you ever have your main snag on your camera helmet you will notice it. Therefore under such circumstances you will cutaway your helmet before you cutaway your main.

Under those circumstances you will not be towing anything by your helmet as it will simply depart with your malfunctioning main. Your skyhook deployed reserve will therefore deploy cleanly.

I suppose there is always the possibility that a main may snag on the camera helmet and the jumper will not notice it, causing him to cutaway his main before cutting away his helmet. This could easily result in the kind of undesirable situation you describe.

However that risk has to be balanced by the possibility that more camera flyers would be saved by the skyhook than killed by it. IF that is the case then in the grand scheme of things many would say it was worth it – fewer people died because of its existence. We see this today with the ordinary RSL.

This of course makes sense to a manufacturer who wishes to look out for us all and create a situation which is the best for the most in a kind of 'balance of harm' exercise. It often doesn't make sense to the individual however, who will always believe their skills will save them and that it won't happen to them even if it does happen to others.

Individuals are more likely to consider the risk of a piece of equipment killing them (because it fires your reserve into a line snag you have failed to notice prior to cutaway) is greater than the risk of dying from failing to manually deploy their reserve in time. Individuals often conclude that their skills are superior and that they will be able to do what others before them have failed to do in the past. Sometimes this leads to deaths.

In the bigger picture, an item which saves more than it kills might be worthwhile – especially if the difference is great. Say in 20 years time we looked back and could show that there were 50 people alive who would have died if they had not been jumping a rig equipped with a skyhook; but there were also 2 dead skydivers who might have survived had they not had an RSL at all.

50 for 2 sounds like a nice swap in the grand scheme of things. Of course for the 2 it sucks royally... and skydivers always think their skills will prevent them being one of the 50... but only choosing not to use the safety device in the first place can keep them from being one of the 2.

The question is; which is the bigger risk? Being one of the 50 or being one of the 2? I'm not nearly qualified enough to make that call. Most of us aren't. Perhaps if your skills really are what you think they are, maybe it really is being one of the 2. If you're wrong though, well maybe you'll find yourself spending the last 2 seconds of your life wishing that you weren't.

[Pendejo 0]

Quote

His position appears to be based on the premise that if you ever have your main snag on your camera helmet you will notice it. Therefore under such circumstances you will cutaway your helmet before you cutaway your main.

I hadn't looked at it that way. It makes more sense now that you put it that way. I read it as he was thinking that I should cut away my helmet before cutting away my main (on any malfunction because the wording was having a riser snag after cutting away).

Quote

However that risk has to be balanced by the possibility that more camera flyers would be saved by the skyhook than killed by it. IF that is the case then in the grand scheme of things many would say it was worth it – fewer people died because of its existence. We see this today with the ordinary RSL.

Most camera guys I know will not jump camera with an RSL... Thats what prompted me to post in the beginning.

I am pro skyhook, it just scares me since I shoot mostly video and stills when I jump. I was trying to understand better as I would like to look at having one on my rig (but not until there is some evidence to prove it does not have the same issues as an RSL where camera is concerned).

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[billbooth 10]

Guys: I haven't designed a perfect device, for all skydivers, in all situations yet...and I doubt the Skyhook is the first.

[Pendejo 0]

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I wasn't trying to start the whole skyhook/rsl or not argument. I think both have great merit, it just seems that when shooting camera they can cause me some problems. I also think that its very possible that they could also save my ass someday. Which is why I'm so interested.

Thanks again.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!