Should I quibble over a $1.2K +/- difference

[ManagingPrime 0]

Hi,

On the third of this month I had my first tandem. While it was less than ideal (uncontrolled spin, early pull due to uncontrolled spin, line twist....vomit ) as soon as I was back on the ground I knew this was for me.

I was told that the training progression went something like 3 tandems and then AFF.

Another DZ in my area has an "advanced AFF" weekend course---4 days and $2500 and you have your license. With my work schedule that is appealing, but i've built a little bit of a rapport with the people at the DZ that is closer to me.

Just this last friday the second tandem was completed. It went perfect and confirmed again that I most definatly want to jump into this sport head first.

Today I'm told that the first two tandems don't count towards training and that after ground school there will be another 2 tandems and then AFF.

OK, after the first jump and seeing how things can go wrong I don't have a problem with a more "thorough" training program, but now my back of the envelope math shows a $1390 difference is course costs, this does not factor in the cost of ground school or the two tandems to date so the price difference could easily be in the $2,000 range.

Again, when it comes to my safety and learning the fundamentals of the sport I don't want to "cheap out", but now I have doubts.

Should I voice my concerns to the DZ? Should I bail to another DZ for my training (willing to travel anywhere)?

Bottom line is that I want good quality training, in a compressed time period and for a good "market price". Problem is that i'm used to telling people "good, fast, cheap....pick two" and that's kind of what i'm asking for. lol

Advice is appreciated.

[dragon2 0]

First off, what license is that?
Just AFF? Not a license as such, so weird name if they call it that. Anyway you could do your AFF in 4 days at lots of places, at no extra charge.
Could they mean A license? Sounds more like the right price. But that's your first 25 jumps in 4 days, not including ground school (?), can't see you do 6/7 jumps every day as a newbie, so that doesn't make much sense.

Ground school should be included in the course costs, wouldn't worry about that.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[davelepka 4]

You need to do some additional homework, as you may have confused a few 'terms'.

AFF is 7 or 8 jumps, at which point you are cleared to 'self jumpmaster'. What that means is that are able to jump solo, or with a certified coach or instructor.

The beginner license, the 'A' license, requires 25 jumps and an assorment of addtional ground-based training sessions. There is no way any DZ can put you through all of this in 4 days. It's more likely that what you get at the 'other' DZ is through the AFF program in 4 days for $2500.

Maybe re-visit each DZ, and get a jump-by jump breakdown of what training they offer, and what the costs are per-jump and when purchased as a package. If you are considering a package deal, ask about the time-line, and if you have to complete the package jumps within a specific amount of time. Poor weather, travel limitations, or just plain 'life' can get in the way of your jumping, and an 'expiration date' for your pre-paid jumps can create problems.

Also, be sure to consider the idea of taking your time. For example, if you should spin up and puke on an AFF jump, you'll probably be done for that day. If you are on a 'schedule', or at a distant DZ, this can create problems. Not to mention, if you intend to purchase gear and begin jumping on a regular basis, learning at the DZ you will be fun-jumping at later on is a consideration. It allows you to build solid relationshipd with the local instructors while you work your way through your student jumps.

These relationships can be of value as you move on though your jumping when you have questions about gear, safety, or general on-going learning in your jumping. I'm not suggesting that instructos would not consult with you if they did not personally train you, but you'll get better 'service' for sure when you're, "Bob, the guy I trained and jumped with last year" as opposed to "The new guy who showed up with an A license from the DZ the next town over".

[ManagingPrime 0]

Quote

First off, what license is that?
Just AFF? Not a license as such, so weird name if they call it that. Anyway you could do your AFF in 4 days at lots of places, at no extra charge.
Could they mean A license? Sounds more like the right price. But that's your first 25 jumps in 4 days, not including ground school (?), can't see you do 6/7 jumps every day as a newbie, so that doesn't make much sense.

Ground school should be included in the course costs, wouldn't worry about that.

Thank you for the reply. Yeah....I guess I should get the terms right. Yes. I'm talking about my A license.

You are the second person to say that 25 jumps in 4 days is a little excessive. From their (the other DZ) website it states (www.startskydiving.com):

"Accelerated Freefall through A License
We offer our popular AFF to A License program that includes Categories A-E 8 jumps, Coach Categories F-H 8 jumps, A License check dive and 6 additional slots $2,500.00***"

Think I may have misrepresented their program as it also goes on to state that the 4 day program covers the Cat A-E 8 jumps.

The middletown DZ (startskydiving.com) provides a good deal of info about their program on their website. My concern is that the DZ where I've had my first two jumps this month has not provided much information in the way of what kind of A license program they offer and as I continue to gain information from them the price appears to keep going up.

As a noob (who still does not even have terminology down yet ) what questions should I be asking? Should I haggle on price? Push for a more accelerated program. The concern is that this DZ will be my home DZ since it is the closest and I don't want to piss anyone off.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Quote

Also, be sure to consider the idea of taking your time. For example, if you should spin up and puke on an AFF jump, you'll probably be done for that day. If you are on a 'schedule', or at a distant DZ, this can create problems. Not to mention, if you intend to purchase gear and begin jumping on a regular basis, learning at the DZ you will be fun-jumping at later on is a consideration. It allows you to build solid relationshipd with the local instructors while you work your way through your student jumps.

These relationships can be of value as you move on though your jumping when you have questions about gear, safety, or general on-going learning in your jumping. I'm not suggesting that instructos would not consult with you if they did not personally train you, but you'll get better 'service' for sure when you're, "Bob, the guy I trained and jumped with last year" as opposed to "The new guy who showed up with an A license from the DZ the next town over".

Too bad I did not check out this site prior to my first jump. After visiting here I found out why I puked...other than spinning out of control at 10K feet---no food, no liquids with exception of red bull. I know what I was thinking, but my logic was obviously flawed. lol

Your point about the relationships is one of my primary concerns. Everyone there is pretty cool and easy to get along with and I don't want something like my eagerness to get my license at an accelerated pace (less than a month) and cost to strain those relationships as I will probably be in the columbus area for the next year or so.

Maybe the more appropriate question should be, what expectations should I have from a DZ as far as A license instruction and is there a good example that can be pointed to (some well know DZ's program, etc.)?

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

Well, there's a great example in the USPA SIM, it's called the Integrated Student Program.

This is the recommended AFF program, Cat A through H.

I agree with the "Good Fast and Cheap, pick 2" philosophy.
Fast is overrated IMO. Given what we are doing, getting it right, no matter what else is the most important thing. Give yourself a cushion to repeat some of the jumps, that will put less pressure on you to get it perfect the first time.

As is said over and over (and over and over): It's a journey, not a destination. Set goals, but don't be so focused on them that you forget to enjoy what happens on the way there.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ManagingPrime 0]

It's my hope that some of the principals from my time as a student pilot will carry over (made it through to cross country and then 9/11 caused some issues). As a pilot how would you compare the "ground learning" (AAD (owner's manual) or wingloading, etc.) to what one has to go through as a student pilot?

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

There really isn't a whole lot of comparison. The classroom mainly covers normal and emergency procedures (no relation to airplanes at all) and the canopy flight. The AAD stuff is pretty basic (this is what it is, this is what it does)

You will have a small advantage with the canopy flight part because you have a better understanding of the aerodynamics and how/why a wing does what it does, stalls and the landing flare. You have an understanding of the landing pattern and how the wind affects it.

But it's a totally different experience. There's a T-shirt that compares riding in a plane and skydiving to riding in a boat and swimming.
Sitting in the plane, behind that 1/8" (or whatever thickness it is) window is completely different from being out there under canopy.

You are also a glider, so you can't add power if your approach is low. That was one of the hardest things for me to overcome.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ManagingPrime 0]

I figured there was not much comparison besides what you mentioned.

Back to the point of the original post. Should I ask a DZ to justify their price if it's above the perceived industry average? The concern is that it would be bad way to start off with a home DZ especially if I decide to go elsewhere. I don't know the community that well, but a number of the posts I've read lead me to believe that when dealing with "noobs" some people can be...ummm....sensitive.

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

I wouldn't. Many DZs are struggling to keep the doors open. With a very few exceptions, nobody is making much money in this business. The old adage of how to make a small fortune (or one million dollars) in aviation applies to skydiving too*

Find a place you are comfortable with. The people, gear, planes, the overall atmosphere. Keep in mind that if you continue on in the sport, the cost of initial training will pale in comparison to the money you eventually spend (the standard answer to How much does it cost? is - ALL OF IT, and then some more).

The one thing I would question is why you have to do 2 more tandems before AFF. Why won't they let you count even one of them? Usually the first tandem is to get over the "Holy crap! I just jumped out of a plane!" sensory overload. It's more of an experience than a lesson. There's also a couple bad habits, especially on landing that tandems will give you. But they may have reasons. As long as you approach it as a question and not a demand, most places will give you an answer (and if they don't then you may want to use that as a consideration to make that your "home DZ")

*Answer in case you hadn't heard this before: start with a large fortune (or 2 million).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ManagingPrime 0]

Thanks. Most of my working life I've been self-employed...so i'm very aware of how to lose money. lol

Yeah, at first I was told that it was 3 tandems and then aff... after two I'm told two more... maybe since the first one was such a cluster that one is not counting. I don't know.

My attempts at getting questions answered have so far not been fruitful, but I understand that it's busy on the weekends and when you've got students in the air you can't really sit down and answer a bunch of questions.

Agreed on the money point as well. I support people making profits in their business... it will ensure that I have a DZ close by. I'm still a little uneasy about such a variance in cost from the norm, but whatever....just give me a reason. Ya know.

Your advise about straight answers is spot on. Think I'll ask some more questions and the answers (or lack thereof) will be the determining factor.

Thanks for the advice. My roommate and I (both noobs) were scratching our heads about what to do.

In any case....can't wait to knock out a solid 6-8 jumps this next week!

I remember the first time I was PIC and how all my concerns in the world disappeared. Skydiving is way better...Everything disappears with the exception of a huge shit eating grin.

[riggerrob 558]

My guess is that the low-balling DZ did not tell you the full story.
They will probably charge you the same amount of money in the long run.

Oh! ... and 25 jumps in 4 days is waaaaaay too fast for a student!

May I remind you of an ancient Scottish business practice?
Throw out the highest bid and throw out the lowest bid, then look seriously at the bids in the middle.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Quote

My guess is that the low-balling DZ did not tell you the full story.
They will probably charge you the same amount of money in the long run.

Oh! ... and 25 jumps in 4 days is waaaaaay too fast for a student!

May I remind you of an ancient Scottish business practice?
Throw out the highest bid and throw out the lowest bid, then look seriously at the bids in the middle.

From what I gather $2,500 is about standard for A license work.

My understanding of the course was wrong. It's just the first 8 jumps on the 4 day weekend.

That's a good saying. I'll have to remember that one.

[Hvance 0]

I don't know what market price is for an A license package, but I paid $1800 for mine. No tandems in that package.

I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

May I remind you of an ancient Scottish business practice?
Throw out the highest bid and throw out the lowest bid, then look seriously at the bids in the middle.

I think they do that when judging synchronized swimming, too.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Well, I got my answer. Guess I'll be looking at the middletown program.

$1,800, huh? Well, since I'm playing by Scottish rules now I guess I have to drop that one and look at the middle.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Today I'm told that the first two tandems don't count towards training and that after ground school there will be another 2 tandems and then AFF.

Aside from what others in the thread have said, I'm concerned that that DZ might be soaking its students for expensive tandems. Oh, I suppose they might say that the first 2 were just "rides", and the next 2 would be "working/training tandems", but essentially making you do a total of 4 tandems before moving on to AFF is not typical of what you'd find at most DZs.

Are the next 2 tandems considerably cheaper than the first 2? And would their AFF be abbreviated somehow, i.e., fewer than a minimum 7 or 8 AFF jumps before being cleared to self-supervise and/or move on to coach jumps? If not, I'd be skeptical of the requirement for yet 2 more tandems.

[Throttlebender 0]

Managing,

My fiance and I both just started our AFF program at Middletown. And if you put @500 up for the A License package, you don't have tpo do those first 8 jumps in 4 days if you don't want to. It';s just an option they provide. The only thing we were told is that we have to make at least one of those 8 progressive jumps every 30 days. You WILL want to jump more than that so it's not really an issue.

On another note, I have'nt been over to Lebanon, but I can tell you a few differences that might influence you. Every piece of jump gear at Start is top of the line and on the newer side. All student rigs have Skyhooks and AADs. They operate a King Air, 2 Caravans, and a Cessna 206 for Hop & Pops(low jumps). They have gotten us up often and 12,500+. Any DZ operating a Cessna 182 probably won't be doing much above 10,500.
The facilities are great, the community is fun, and I trust ALL of the instructors. I'm a pilot myself and am pretty safety oriented, and I can honestly say that I've been impressed.
I'm not trying to take away from Lebanon, but I am saying that Startskydiving in Middletown is pretty damn sweet.

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[Throttlebender 0]

When doing my research on which one I wanted to go to, I think I remember finding out that $1800 was Lebanon's tandem progression price and that their strictly AFF price was $2200, and Startskydiving has the $2500 package.

I finally decided I was ok paying a few hundred more based on nice equipment and aircraft that would get me up faster, higher, and more often.

This was just my thinking though. I hope it helps:)

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[MorfiusX 0]

Coincidentally, I am headed over there today on my way home from work to get info on the AFF program. I planned on starting in a week or so. If there are any question you want asked in person, shoot me a PM.

[stratostar 5]

What makes you think this poster is talking about SWC and not Skydive Columbus Ohio, or SGC?

After all your not trying to "take away" from any other dz's.... right!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[kallend 1,644]

Quote

There really isn't a whole lot of comparison. The classroom mainly covers normal and emergency procedures (no relation to airplanes at all) and the canopy flight. The AAD stuff is pretty basic (this is what it is, this is what it does)

You will have a small advantage with the canopy flight part because you have a better understanding of the aerodynamics and how/why a wing does what it does, stalls and the landing flare. You have an understanding of the landing pattern and how the wind affects it.

But it's a totally different experience. There's a T-shirt that compares riding in a plane and skydiving to riding in a boat and swimming.
Sitting in the plane, behind that 1/8" (or whatever thickness it is) window is completely different from being out there under canopy.

You are also a glider, so you can't add power if your approach is low. That was one of the hardest things for me to overcome.

I found it helped a lot, but I also had a glider rating in addition to ASEL/Instrument.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ManagingPrime 0]

Thanks for the replies and PM's. Made my decision about where I will be doing my A work. Hopefully, my post was not percieved to have any negative slant towards any particular DZ. I like everyone I've met in the sport so far (with the possible exception of one rigger who thought it was really funny that I puked...but after getting to hang out a bit with him....He's pretty cool too. )

Seems differnt DZ's cater to different types. Maybe some try to be all things to all divers while others focus on tandem or training or fun jumps. I hope to experience as many DZ's as possible.

Again, thanks for the replies.

[Throttlebender 0]

You're right, it's possible the OP was talking about another DZ. SWC is the closest to Start though so I don't think it was much of a stretch. Just stating my opinion and the reasons for the choice I made. And so far, it's been a good one for me

YMMV

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[kmills0705 0]

Quote

Thanks for the replies and PM's. Made my decision about where I will be doing my A work. Hopefully, my post was not percieved to have any negative slant towards any particular DZ. I like everyone I've met in the sport so far (with the possible exception of one rigger who thought it was really funny that I puked...but after getting to hang out a bit with him....He's pretty cool too. )

Seems differnt DZ's cater to different types. Maybe some try to be all things to all divers while others focus on tandem or training or fun jumps. I hope to experience as many DZ's as possible.

Again, thanks for the replies.

There are several of us from this forum that jump out at Start. Great DZ. Amazing facilities, aircraft and instructional staff.

Find me and say hello next time you are out!

Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I