Pokerstar 0 #1 July 6, 2009 I am picking up a new frameset to build up, and I was thinking of going with a Campagnolo group, but, I haven't ridden an Ultegra (or Dura Ace) group. This is a very high end frame, a Cyfac Infini Carbone, so it will desere a good group! I already have a set of Mavic Aksium wheels, for Shimano, but it is easy to convert to Campagnolo for a few bucks. Any thoughts?Fortunately, I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug, uh, regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber. --- The Dude --- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #2 July 6, 2009 Sorry. Love mountainbikes, but being on the road with cars sounds like a bad idea. Have fun though.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pokerstar 0 #3 July 6, 2009 I know what you mean, car vs bicycle isn't a fair fight.Fortunately, I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug, uh, regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber. --- The Dude --- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,410 #4 July 6, 2009 I have a road bike: Campy Also a Cross bike (set up for touring in the mountains): Shimano In general: - Front shifting: Campy wins - Rear shifting: Shimano wins - Brifters: Campy wins - Brifter serviceability: Campy serviceable, Shimano disposable Also, since Campy only made a half-hearted effort at the mtn bike market in the '90's, then gave up, I can't assemble a bike from Campy parts with low enough gearing for a 190 lb guy to tackle 17% mtn grades."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #5 July 6, 2009 QuoteI am picking up a new frameset to build up, and I was thinking of going with a Campagnolo group, but, I haven't ridden an Ultegra (or Dura Ace) group. This is a very high end frame, a Cyfac Infini Carbone, so it will desere a good group! I already have a set of Mavic Aksium wheels, for Shimano, but it is easy to convert to Campagnolo for a few bucks. Any thoughts? You need Campgagnolo, where too many thousand miles mean at most three springs costing less than $5 each to rebuild your right shifter (some need a retainer plate on the first rebuild), you can trim the front derailleur, and you can shift as many cogs smaller as you want and a bunch bigger (at least as much as you want to compensate for a ring change). You also want the gearing combinations after you've developed a decent spin, because normal people don't even need a 13 small cog but really appreciate a 16 or 18 that's missing when the cassette starts at an 11 or 12. Specifics vary with vintage and component. You need the classic Ergopower system where you can go all the way smaller and a few gears larger on the rear derailleur. The new fangled gear-at-at-time system won't cut it. The last time I checked that meant Chorus on the shifters. Silver is better than this newfangled black crap since it doesn't show scratches at a distance. Beyond that specifics vary. When I built my bike 15 years ago you needed Chorus in the shifters and brakes to get ball bearings and grease ports on the hubs. Record was a cosmetic change with a few titanium pieces. Most of the time I still ride it at least five days a week. I've rebuilt the right shifter at least three times, worn out a ringset, worn out a few cogsets, exhausted one bottom bracket, and replaced at least three rims due to damage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #6 July 6, 2009 QuoteI have a road bike: Campy Also a Cross bike (set up for touring in the mountains): Shimano In general: - Front shifting: Campy wins - Rear shifting: Shimano wins - Brifters: Campy wins - Brifter serviceability: Campy serviceable, Shimano disposable Also, since Campy only made a half-hearted effort at the mtn bike market in the '90's, then gave up, I can't assemble a bike from Campy parts with low enough gearing for a 190 lb guy to tackle 17% mtn grades. Campy has triples in every trim level up to Record. The 10-speed setups have a 13-29 and when you need a 29 you don't need an 11 or 12 cog. 30x29 is plenty low. With some training even 30x21 is fine for the Mike Morgan Memorial Hill Climb. Contrary to popular belief the triple shifts better since there isn't as much diameter difference between rings. You can also use all cogs without chain rub even with short chain stays (like a 55cm center to top Litespeed). The rings become really up-hill, somewhat up-hill or flat with headwind, and fast + flat or down with enough overlap you don't move the front shifter very often. I switched from 50-40-30 x 13-21 8-speed (Greg Lemond raced with a 52x14 high gear, and there are few situations where you need even 50x13 as a normal person) to a 50-34 double x 13-23 9-speed and it was a mistake (didn't shift as well, even after shimming not all combinations were usable without rubbing, and there's a lot more movement between rings). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #7 July 6, 2009 I think most of the road components available are pretty good... the major difference between the higher components in any of the three lines (Shimano/SRAM or Campy) are weight because they will use lighter components. Generally I've found that people will be either a Shimano person or a Campy person and will argue that theirs is the best and the other side is bad... but honestly both of them are pretty good... on my bike I have Shimano components and am running a 105 Derailer linked to a SRAM OG-1070 Casette, installed on a Easton EA90 wheelset (which are unbelievably light and fast wheels...)... with an Ultegra Triple crank and Ultegra front and rear Shifters... and I'm using a durace 10 speed chain... since I had problems with the SRAM 10 speed chain slipping in higher gears... all of this is attached to a Schwinn Fastback Comp (which is an aluminum framed bike with carbon forks...)Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,410 #8 July 6, 2009 Quote Campy has triples in every trim level up to Record. The 10-speed setups have a 13-29 and when you need a 29 you don't need an 11 or 12 cog. 30x29 is plenty low. With some training even 30x21 is fine for the Mike Morgan Memorial Hill Climb. Gearing is like canopy sizing; What a person needs is dependent on weight. Physics dictates that the featherweight guys can always climb faster than the big guys. Tom Danielson (130 lbs) holds the record for both Lookout Mt, and Mt Evans, averaging 16mph up both. Obviously, when you are averaging a speed like that, you don't need very low gears. I (190 lbs) average about 7mph up Lookout, so I need gearing about 2.2x lower than Tom to maintain the same cadence. My Campy bike has a triple and a 13-29 cassette. I did Lee Hill Road with it once and will never make that mistake again. I damn near wrecked my knees. My Cross bike has Shimano XT RD, 22/32/48 rings, 11-34 cassette, Ultegra FD & STI's, and I use every gear. At the top of Flagstaff Road (17%), I use the 22/34 and wish I had even lower."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #9 July 6, 2009 Bad enough that my knees are killing me, reading your post makes me cringe. I used to be able to hump the pig up rocks that had 24" steps, now I need an escalator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,410 #10 July 6, 2009 Quote Bad enough that my knees are killing me, reading your post makes me cringe. I used to be able to hump the pig up rocks that had 24" steps, now I need an escalator. Even a 32% grade is no problem if you have the proper tool for the job: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgIL6eHHgZU "There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,410 #11 July 6, 2009 Quote You need the classic Ergopower system where you can go all the way smaller and a few gears larger on the rear derailleur. The new fangled gear-at-at-time system won't cut it. The last time I checked that meant Chorus on the shifters. You are talking about the "Escape" (non)-feature of 2007-2008, which afflicted the groups except for Record and Chorus. I built my Campy bike in 2008 and deliberately bought a 2006 New-Old-Stock Centaur brifter set off eBay in order to avoid the Escape crap. As of 2009, all the brifters have been redesigned inside and out, and all work the same. I don't think the bearing/bushing difference is even there anymore. And what I have read is that servicing is even easier now."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #12 July 6, 2009 Aksium wheels on that setup? Surely, you should be able to do better! I guess initial budget can be an issue too... If you can still get Dura Ace 7800, you may be able to get an awesome deal on the groupo. ame goes for a record 10 groupo. If you want the latest and greatest, then 7900 or Record 11 will be comparable in price, performance, but as other have said servicibility will be better on the Campy. Super Record 11 will cost ya about 800 more. That being said, for hacks like me, any of those groupos would do just fine! Heck, Ultegra SL is now just a hair under the performance level of 7800. I've done 7,000 miles on my Ultegra/Dura Uace mixed bike now with no issues whatsoever. Except the stoopid FSA crank. Stay away from FSA. But, again, Aksium... Are you sure? Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,410 #13 July 6, 2009 Quote Aksium wheels on that setup? Surely, you should be able to do better! ... But, again, Aksium... Are you sure? Mavic R-Sys.Or, if he is doing a lot of descending: Hed Stalingrad."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #14 July 6, 2009 A bastard friend of mine just got a Cervelo S2 with 7900, and Zipp's 404. I hate him. Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #15 July 6, 2009 QuoteBut, again, Aksium... Are you sure? Get a competent wheel builder to lace up the 32 hole double eyeleted rim of your choice with machined braking surfaces to a set of Shimano or Campy hubs as needed to fit your preferred cassette brand using 14/15 double butted spokes. They'll be light enough and stay true until crashed. When you do put a minor bend in one that unloads a spoke they often stay true enough to ride (especially with the Campy brake quick releases) until you get around to making a repair. People who think you need Loctite or Spoke Prep should be avoided because they don't put enough tension in their wheels. A drop of oil at each nipple is all you need. People who think bigger straight-gauge spokes are stronger should be avoided because they don't understand the mechanics of how wheels work - in that case the stresses concentrate in the elbows and at a given tension the spoke stretches less so it takes a smaller hit to unload the spoke completely thus eliminating the wheel's lateral support so it can move off center and collapse when tension is restored. For bonus points, if you have patience and some mechanical inclination buy a copy of _The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt and build your own wheels. You'll take a lot longer than some one with experience but still produce a quality product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,410 #16 July 6, 2009 QuoteQuoteBut, again, Aksium... Are you sure? Get a competent wheel builder to lace up the 32 hole double eyeleted rim of your choice with machined braking surfaces to a set of Shimano or Campy hubs as needed to fit your preferred cassette brand using 14/15 double butted spokes. They'll be light enough and stay true until crashed. When you do put a minor bend in one that unloads a spoke they often stay true enough to ride (especially with the Campy brake quick releases) until you get around to making a repair. People who think you need Loctite or Spoke Prep should be avoided because they don't put enough tension in their wheels. A drop of oil at each nipple is all you need. People who think bigger straight-gauge spokes are stronger should be avoided because they don't understand the mechanics of how wheels work - in that case the stresses concentrate in the elbows and at a given tension the spoke stretches less so it takes a smaller hit to unload the spoke completely thus eliminating the wheel's lateral support so it can move off center and collapse when tension is restored. For bonus points, if you have patience and some mechanical inclination buy a copy of _The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt and build your own wheels. You'll take a lot longer than some one with experience but still produce a quality product. All I can add to that is: - Being 190, I prefer to use 36 spokes, but since I am still using a pair of Phil Wood 32H hubs I bought in '97, the Cross bike has 32's. - Off-Center rims in back, especially with Campy hubs. They make a *huge* improvement in non-drive-side spoke tension."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #17 July 6, 2009 Quote Aksium wheels on that setup? Surely, you should be able to do better! I was thinking the same thing... I'm sure I'll make my own wheels for my next bike... (not something soon...) but although mavic wheels are nice... why wouldn't you put something much nicer on a bike frame like that... I know I would... Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #18 July 6, 2009 QuoteI'm sure I'll make my own wheels for my next bike I'm way too lazy for that! :-D. Plus, you pay about the same for the parts as you would for a complete wheel from a good shop who's willing to get your business.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,410 #19 July 6, 2009 QuoteQuoteI'm sure I'll make my own wheels for my next bike I'm way too lazy for that! :-D. Plus, you pay about the same for the parts as you would for a complete wheel from a good shop who's willing to get your business. Used to get my wheels from a *very* well-known shop. The last time they built wheels for me, cracks started forming around many of the spokes. They would not warranty it, so I had to pay for a new wheel build. At that point I decided I was going to start building my own. When I got the new tools, I put the tension meter on the wheels they had built. The tension was OFF THE CHARTS, i.e. I could not look up the kgf on the conversion chart because it did not go that high. If you want something done right, you need to do it yourself. I've been riding wheels I built myself for two years, with no problems whatsoever."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #20 July 6, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'm sure I'll make my own wheels for my next bike I'm way too lazy for that! :-D. Plus, you pay about the same for the parts as you would for a complete wheel from a good shop who's willing to get your business. Used to get my wheels from a *very* well-known shop. I bought a frame set from a *very* well-known shop and had them turn it into a bike with hand-made wheels. They were under-tensioned, didn't stay true, and the front wheel folded up on a small bump which could have been due to tension. Quote If you want something done right, you need to do it yourself. I've been riding wheels I built myself for two years, with no problems whatsoever. Right. I think my front wheel is at least ten years old (Mavic hasn't made Reflex clincher rims since the late 1990s). Finally put a bend in the rim and had to true it last weekend. I might have five years on the rear that got rebuilt when I crashed from learning the hard way that when chain rings wear out you can find yourself in a smaller ring without touching the shifters. Ow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,410 #21 July 6, 2009 BTW I didn't see anyone pick up on my joke about the Mavic R-Sys; So you are a big-name mfgr building high-priced re-inventions of the bicycle wheel. Bad: One of your customers has a catastrophic failure. Worse: It happens in a public race. Even worse: He is an editor for VeloNews magazine: http://www.velonews.com/article/93054 "There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #22 July 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'm sure I'll make my own wheels for my next bike I'm way too lazy for that! :-D. Plus, you pay about the same for the parts as you would for a complete wheel from a good shop who's willing to get your business.If you want something done right, you need to do it yourself. I've been riding wheels I built myself for two years, with no problems whatsoever.That's just it... I'm not too lazy... in fact the idea of building a wheel myself actually interests me greatly... (I'm an engineer so developing an appreciation of how something works and how to build it myself is very exciting...) Like I said... I'll definitely be building my next set of wheels myself...Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pokerstar 0 #23 July 7, 2009 I have a couple sets of Aksiums, and my main bike has Ksyrium Elites. I weigh 235, and in the MS150 I hit a chuck hole so hard I lost a water bottle, but the Ksyrium Elite took it like a champ! Still rolling true! The Ksyrium Elites are pretty damn bulletproof! The bikes I have (currently) are - Trek 1.5 2008 Shimano Sora / Tiagra components, Bontrager wheels / tires Novara Squadra Team 2008 SRAM Force components, Ksyrium ELite wheels Specialized S-Works X-cross bike - Dura ace components, weird H-bar handlebars, Ksyrium Aksium wheels (street) Campy Atlanta 1996 w/ shimano hubs (dirt) (affectionately known as Franken-Bike) Schwinn Paramount 1992 - Shimano components Cool White w/ Purple Slime paint job. Cyfac Tigre 2005 - currently in process of being built. Campy Record 10-speed, Ksyrium SL SSC wheels. Salsa drops, Selle Italia seat. New frameset - Cyfac Infini Carbone. This is hte one I am trying to decide what Gruppo to put on it. I have some Aksium wheels that can go on, or, who knows. I should probably open a used bike store on weekends!Fortunately, I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug, uh, regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber. --- The Dude --- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MightyMouse 0 #24 July 7, 2009 A mate has just put Sram Red on his Jamis in place of Ultegra; the setup is really good, shifting seamless and quick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #25 July 7, 2009 Quote BTW I didn't see anyone pick up on my joke about the Mavic R-Sys; Yes, we got it... I didnt want to fuel your anti-Mavic rants Carbon spokes sound interesting... in theory... Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
