Raven reserve

[skybytch 259]

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accusing me of "not doing my own thinking" is a bit harsh

Not intended as an attack on you. Just commenting on what I perceive as an attitude that's all too prevelant - believing and asserting that because someone has a piece of paper they therefore know everything and are always right. I was guilty of it in the past; it took rigging for awhile and then going to work in the industry (gear sales) to make me see that I knew a lot less than I thought I did and so did many people I used to think were infallible.

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if your rigger's opinion is that something is sub-standard, whether or not you agree with him/her, going out and buying that component and expecting them to maintain it is a bit of an insult. Just my opinion, but you do see my point, right?

No, not really. If the rigger I was using didn't like or didn't want to pack what I decided to buy, I'd use a different rigger.

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I guess the other option is to leave your rigger out of the loop totally, but I figured they might know a thing or two about gear

Hopefully. But they also can suffer from the "this is the best, this is crap" mentality that a lot of jumpers suffer from. Every piece of gear out there has people who say it's the greatest; if it wasn't the greatest why would they be jumping it?

Because a piece of gear has limitations on how it should be used (like older design reserves do) doesn't make it crap. Just means that the person jumping it needs to be aware of and operate within those limitations.

[NickDG 23]

Yes, Amigos are still available, I did some of the first live test jumps, intentional cutaways and high speed deployments, on them for Free Flight . . . and while Free Flight didn't put much into marketing them they were good canopies that later became the plane form and inspiration for another now famous canopy I won't mention . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Hopefully. But they also can suffer from the "this is the best, this is crap" mentality that a lot of jumpers suffer from. Every piece of gear out there has people who say it's the greatest; if it wasn't the greatest why would they be jumping it?

I think we can agree that you should ask your rigger questions and then ask a lot of "why"'s when you get the answers. If someone says something is crap, fine, but they should have some very good reasons. If they don't have very good reasons, you should consider their opinion suspect.

Derek

[NickDG 23]

I've seen cases where people who sell gear call something "crap" simply because they don't get a good enough price break on them, LOL . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I've seen cases where people who sell gear call something "crap" simply because they don't get a good enough price break on them, LOL . . .

And I've seen lousy gear pushed because they were getting great margins on it.. Definitely ask "Why". If not thoroughly convinced, ask another rigger and compare the “why”’s.

Derek

[D22369 0]

I know Tempos are crap

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Based on what? DZ.com BS?

Tempos are fine reseves as long as you do not overload them pass The MAX SUSP WEIGHT like many do and then they bitch about it. Go figure.

I flew a Tempo 150 and I was impressed by the performence. Several at my DZ have flown Tempos and they all liked the way they flew and landed. None were overloaded. Some cannot say the same about Micro Ravens...

I have two Tempos 150 @ 1.15. I cannot say a single bad thing about them.

I agree that Tempos don't have the reinforcements that PDRs have. Keep in mind that the max exit weight of the Tempo 150 is much lower than the one for a PDR 143 (254 LBS).

As long as you stay within PISA's limits you're fine.

I would not jump a Tempo or any other reserve over the max susp weight. ***

you and I are in total agreement, were you replying to the wrong post?

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[teason 0]

I jumped my Amigo 172 twice and found it to be amazing even though someone forgot to put the stabilizers on! ... ah rigger humour.
But seriously, an all around great canopy, didn't know they still sold them! I'd buy another, it had an amazing flare.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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so 1.3 may be a little too much

Look at the warning label on your Raven. It specifies a maximum exit weight and deployment speed... those numbers are as high as you are allowed to go "legally." And I do mean legally; as a lifesaving device, exceeding the maximum exit weight is actually against the law.

That being said, a micro-raven 150 is placarded to 150 lbs exit weight, and for the longest time was considered the state of the art reserve, and TONS of people in the 200 lb range jumped them without any problems.

While different size and model ravens are placarded to different exit weights, they all had to pass TSO C23c, which is 254 lbs exit weight at 150 knots. So structurally, you're theoretically fine under just about anything, although the smaller you go, the more you're pushing your luck. Whether 1.3 is too high depends on how comfortable you would be flying it. If it's a similar size or slightly larger than your main, you're probably fine.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Look at the warning label on your Raven. It specifies a maximum exit weight and deployment speed... those numbers are as high as you are allowed to go "legally." And I do mean legally; as a lifesaving device, exceeding the maximum exit weight is actually against the law.

Do you have a reference that shows exceeding the manfucturer's recommended max weight or speed is illegal or that exceeding the TSO max weight or speed is illegal?

Also, the manufacturer can put any max and weight speeds they want on the label,t hat doesn;t change what the reserve w3as TSO'd to.

Derek

[riggerrob 561]

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I jumped my Amigo 172 twice and found it to be amazing even though someone forgot to put the stabilizers on! ... ah rigger humour.
But seriously, an all around great canopy, didn't know they still sold them! I'd buy another, it had an amazing flare.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ditto.
I have had the same experiences with amy Amigo 172.
Amigo reserves are made by Free Flight Enterprises in Elsinore, California.
FFE was owned by Gary Douris for many years. We wonder if the new owners: Ballistic Recovery Systems will continue production of Amigo (square) and Preserve (round) production.

[riggerrob 561]

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No I know Tempos are crap,

Do you know this, or is it what someone told you?

Sparky

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Try telling that to our last dozen students who used Tempo 250s when they needed them.

Hint: most of the people who bash Tempos, Ravens, Swifts, etc. badly over-loaded them, then wondered why they landed hard.
Dooh!

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Do you have a reference that shows exceeding the manfucturer's recommended max weight or speed is illegal or that exceeding the TSO max weight or speed is illegal?

Upon further investigation, not exactly. I failed to note the line "to lower the risk of death, serious bodily injury, canopy damage and hard openings, never exceed the following limitaitons." So no, it's not actually illegal to jump as long as you're under 254 lbs exit weight.

HOWEVER, my PD reserve manual states "the FAA has given Performace Designs the authority to lower the legal weight limits from those of the TSO." It goes on to state that this is true even though they must TSO the canopy using all the standard tests, and even though all their canopies have been tested well beyond even that.

So in the case of PD, some of their reserves are, in fact, illegal at an exit weight less than that of the "standard" TSO. In the case of the Raven, to my knowledge, this is not true.

I guess the important thing here is that a precident has been set by PD, and other manufacturers may (or may already have...) decide to reduce their legal max weight limits.

Thanks for asking, by the way... it's good to have people on DZ.com who will politely challenge a claim... especially when they are an expert in the field.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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So no, it's not actually illegal to jump as long as you're under 254 lbs exit weight.

I don't think it is illegal to exceed the TSO'd weight and/or speed either though. If it was, there is a lot of illegal skydiving going on, exceeding the max speed of the container and/or reserve.

I would like to see something from the FAA saying it is illegalto exceed the TSO'd max weight or speed and the lower than TSO'd speed and weights from PDR's.

I hadn't seen that in the PD manual, thanks.

This really is just talking legalities, not what is safe or smart, just what is legal.

Derek

[crewkeith 0]

i had a raven dash m loaded at 1.9ish it didnt fly very well.....wouldnt recomend that wingloading on a reserve. come on pd get them new reserves out already.


.

The skies are no longer safe

I'm back

[wuffo 1]

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i had a raven dash m loaded at 1.9ish it didnt fly very well.....wouldnt recomend that wingloading on a reserve

But I see by your profile that you jump a PD 113, loaded at 1.95! Dude, at your field elevation in CO, or even at sea level for that matter, loading a reserve OF ANY MAKE like you are doing is about the most foolish decision a skydiver can make. Yes, I'm sure you've landed your 113 and had "no problem". But I'll bet you haven't landed it unconcious or in some way incapacitated and had "no problem".

Folks, PLEASE do as Kieth says, not as he does!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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But I'll bet you haven't landed it unconcious or in some way incapacitated and had "no problem".

Since he doesn;t have an AAD, the odds of landing under his reserve unconcious are very low. Yes, it is an increased risk, but he has the experience to make an educated choice.

I put a ride on a MR-109-M and a PD-106R in CO. The -M had very little flare even with extra speed from a turn to final, while the PD had lots of flare with a straight in approach. I was 190-ish out the door. I didn't have an AAD.

Derek

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I don't think it is illegal to exceed the TSO'd weight and/or speed either though. If it was, there is a lot of illegal skydiving going on, exceeding the max speed of the container and/or reserve.

Also from the PD manual: "Exceeding the absolute maximum suspended weight is illegal, a violation of federal aviation regulations..."

They don't give a formal FAA reference along with that, but you could try contacting PD and asking for it.

And if true, then yeah, there is a lot of illegal skydiving going on... I know a few people with an exit weight over 254 to begin with. As for max speed, that's pretty gray... It's maximum DEPLOYMENT speed, so it could be argued that it isn't illegal to freefall faster than 150 knots, just to deploy faster than 150. I could see a team of lawers having a field day with that.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."