New gear advice.

[atticus 0]

I am getting ready to down size. i like the aerodyne Icon container, but I don't know anyone who has that container. I like the Javelin Odyssey too but so many people have it. I want something different, is there a reason the icon is not a popular rig? Also how is the the pilot in comparison with the saber 2? If anyone has knowledge or experience with these rigs please give me some advice I would really appreciate it! Thanx!!

P.s. Gus we miss you.

[JohnGraham 0]

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I like the Javelin Odyssey too but so many people have it.

I am NOT a gear expert (as you may have guessed if you glance at my profile) but there is a reason that so many people have a Javelin.
Why do you think that so many people having it is a BAD thing?

[Conquest150 0]

i believe the biggest reason so many people dont have an icon is that it is still a fairly new rig on the market. As far as the javelin odyssey goes it has been on the market for awhile and there are a whole lot more used ones out there for people to buy. that is just my opinion on it, take it for what you want.

[falxori 0]

sometimes rig popularity is based on more than just its quality.
sometimes its tradition of the DZ or maybe this specific dealer gets better deals from this company etc.

i dont know much about the pilot (heard its similar to saber2) but i know i just loved my sabre2

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[larsrulz 0]

Seems you are already loading your current canopy up quite a bit, so standard "talk to your instructors first" warning needs to preempt.

The Icon is a very nice and innovative rig. It is still new on the market, but everyone I know that bought one is very happy with it! As far as the pilot goes, I like it better than a sabre2, at least my comparison between a sabre2 150 and a pilot 140. It seems to be less aggressive and responsive to toggle input, but I loved everything else about it: front riser pressure, openings, flares, slow flight characteristics and much more. They definitely both have their pluses. Considering how available both companies are for demos, why not request a demo from each?!?

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[nbblood 0]

I have an Odyssey and I love it. I've also checked out the Icon at demo displays. Although I've never jumped it, I really liked a lot of the features it had. I'm not really qualified to speak about the functionality other than some of the features the Aerodyne rep pointed out really made sense to me, including how the risers pack outside the main tray and the location of the main closing loop. I also really like the look of the Icon. Seems to me to be a great rig. I think there's not a lot of them yet because they're relatively new. Anyway, that's what I think about the Icon.

As far as the Sabre2 and Pilot, I've jumped both and both are great canopies. It kind of depends on what you're looking for in the canopy. The size and wingloadings I jumped were likely very different than you're looking at. I'd say check with your S&TA/instructors about what's appropriate and then demo the canopies yourself. Aside from that, what I found was:

Pilot, Great openings, on heading and soft. Very responsive on toggles. Shorter than expected recovery arc. Flies pretty flat without input (read not ground hungry)

Sabre2, openings can be unpredictable, body position and packing methods are important. Steeper glide, lighter riser pressure, not as responsive on toggles as the pilot. More speed and lift on landing.

Those were my personal observations. I chose the Sabre2 because it was more what I was looking for, but both are great canopies IMHO.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[atticus 0]

thanx arsrulz, The people I've talked to so far that have experience with both the saber2 and pilot have sided with the pilot. (you and a packer from mia.) Im also leaning towards the icon I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't something that jumpers didn't like about them.
I was planning to downsize to a 1.3 or a 1.4 wing load. I want a canopy that I will be happy with for a long time. I have jumpped this wing load a few times already and I can see how things can get a little dangerous if i'm not careful.(like 0 wind) My instructor didn't seem to think it was an issue if I downsize to that wing load. I am going to try to take a canopy course in deland right after I get the new rig.

• Quote

[mattjw916 2]

If you really want to be different get a Voodoo or a Talon FS, both great rigs IMHO and I have rarely seen them outside Arizona. That said, I really love my Mirage and wouldn't trade it for anything.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[atticus 0]

Hmmmn, I think I'm going with the Icon. I've packed myself a slammer before with the saber2 and I'm still not sure why. (It was a brand spanking new canopy) It happen the the owner before too and it was packed by a professional @ deland. The Openings are a con for the saber2,But i like the flare they generate. The packer @ sky mia said the pilot had better openings and better response and flight. Then again either one is way better than the F-111 im jumping now.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Unless your profile is out of date, you would be ill advised to increase your wingloading to 1.3-1.4. As long as everything is going right, that wing loading is no big deal. When things are not going well, they get worse much faster at higher wing loadings.

Most of the best swoopers I've met learned to swoop at very low wing loadings. It arguably takes more skill to swoop a large canopy than a small one. There is no reason not to put a few hundred jumps on your PD 9 cell. If you just feel a need to get a new canopy, stay closer to 1.1 Lbs. per sq ft. You will get a substantial increase in canopy performance just by changing the planform (switching from a rectangular canopy to an elliptical one).

Just my $.02

For Great Deals on Gear

[nbblood 0]

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The packer @ sky mia said the pilot had better openings and better response and flight.

I'd agree with that.....kinda. The openings on the Pilot are way better. The Pilot has quicker responsiveness.....yes. I think the Sabre2 is more responsive to the flare though....more lift. Don't get me wrong, the Pilot is good there too, but the Sabre2 simply has more lift from my experience. I personally chose the Sabre2 because it didn't recover as quickly and allowed me to generate more speed on landing. The Pilot, I felt, took more effort to generate the same speed.

Again, both are great canopies and if the reliable openings are important I think the Pilot is a better choice. I've NEVER been slammed by a Sabre2 and I've got 300 or so jumps on them, but on heading can be somewhat unpredictable. Much of that is up to the jumper though too. I've learned a lot about packing and body position on opening from jumping the Sabre2. Very valuable lessons I might add.

Anyway, check em both out and make up your own mind. I don't think you can go wrong either way.

Edited to say: See what Chris said in the post before me. Probably very good advice. I am not qualified to say what's right or wrong, my posts are merely to give my personal observations on the Pilot and Sabre2.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[larsrulz 0]

Not to hijack, but I'm curious of others opinions who have jumped both. I thought the pilot had a very slow response (as I said above), particularly to toggle input. This may be the fact that I've been jumping my samurai and haven't been under a sabre2 since the convention last year, but I really thought it had a quicker toggle response. It seemed that it had a slower response to a snap toggle input, but would get more aggressive (than the sabre2) with holding that same toggle input. Any insight?

Edited to add: I jumped the pilot two weeks ago and has been 8 months since I was under a sabre2.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[atticus 0]

Maybe I should wait a little longer before increasing my WL. I find myself pulling @ lower alt. just because it takes so long to get down. I hate being the last guy to land all the time. I'm not sure if it is possible to swoop my worn f-111, when the wind is low it looses it's flare drastically. At the rate im going now I will have 200 jumps by july-aug. I'm not buying the rig till summer time. Do you think If I fly smarter like good spotting,early final approach,Minimal toggle input @ low alt. and canopy control course. I can get away with that WL in a few months from now? I've done some stupid things in my f-111 i have kinda lost respect for it cause it is so forgiving at my current WL. I am not down sizing cause I want to start swooping I just wanted something a little more fun to fly.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I am not down sizing cause I want to start swooping I just wanted something a little more fun to fly.

I think the Sabre2 or the Pilot in the size you jump now will be plenty to keep you busy. They'll both be a HUGE step up in performance, even at the same loading as your current canopy.

Best piece of advice I can give you is the same I recently gave to a friend I care about a lot (I hope she reads this):

Don't ever buy a canopy 'for the future'. Buy it for NOW, or there may never be a future.


If you're ready for a higher loading when the time comes to buy, awesome...If not, oh well, just buy it when you're ready.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[nbblood 0]

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Not to hijack, but I'm curious of others opinions who have jumped both. I thought the pilot had a very slow response (as I said above), particularly to toggle input. This may be the fact that I've been jumping my samurai and haven't been under a sabre2 since the convention last year, but I really thought it had a quicker toggle response. It seemed that it had a slower response to a snap toggle input, but would get more aggressive (than the sabre2) with holding that same toggle input. Any insight?

Yeah, I'm curious now too. Seems we had different observations. I did jump the Pilot then the Sabre2 in close proximity to them. Also, I'm not saying that the Sabre2 was not toggle responsive, just less than the Pilot. Anyway, I'm interested in others experiences now too.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[bob.dino 0]

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I think the Sabre2 or the Pilot in the size you jump now will be plenty to keep you busy. They'll both be a HUGE step up in performance, even at the same loading as your current canopy.

I just wanted to reemphasise this. I went from a ragged-out F111 canopy to a new Spectre and there was light-years of difference in the canopy's performance. I'd bet you'll see the same.

[Peej 0]

I jump a Mirage and will only ever jump a Mirage, that's just my opinion though - i have no experience with Icons or Javs.

I have jumped both the Pilot and the Sabre 2, personally i preffered the way the Sabre 2 dived on the risers and i liked its overall responsivness more.

Again, JMO.

The advice i can give you though is demo, demo, demo. You might also want to look at the Safire 2 from Icarus and the Fusion from Precision, both are very similar to the Sabre 2 and Pilot and personally i preffered the way they flew.

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[AndyMan 7]

I own both an Icon and a Javelin.

The Javelin simply does not compare to the engineering design of the Icon. SunPath has a lot of work to do to catch up - I hope they're paying attention.

The Icon is not a common rig since it's new. It came on the market last summer, and is aparently selling well.

If I was to buy yet another rig and had to rule out the Icon, I would take a hard look at a Mirage, I think. I would not consider another Javelin unless Sunpath steps up their redesign efforts.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[atticus 0]

my next container is definitely going to be the icon and probably the pilot. But I'm Goin to wait until I am ready to down size before I buy it. I know someone who is selling a saber2 the same size as my current canopy for $800. I think Im gonna buy it and stay with my current container (javelin) for a while. That would be the best thing for right now. In about 100 jumps from now i'll reconsider down sizing. Every one was really helpful. thanx alot I really appreciate it. I realize now that I might have been jumping the gun with the higher wingload.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Nice! Sounds like you're approaching this sensibly. Please keep us posted on how you like the Sabre2 (sounds like a great deal btw) and how your flight is progressing.

Best of luck!

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[nbblood 0]

That sounds like a pretty good plan. Enjoy! In the meantime, check out Billvon's downsizing checklist here . It's an excellent source to work on your canopy skills to get prepared to downsize.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[atticus 0]

Good article!! I'm going to start practicing this weekend.