kallend 1,644 #26 March 25, 2005 QuoteQuote It should have been caught on an equipment check. It is quite obvious what mode it's set on. Lets not have some knee-jerk reaction to something that training should cover. I'm sure Solly Williams has more than enough training, and knew full well how to arm, set, and inspect his Vigil. He's a member of one of the hottest 4-way teams around, after all. Still, he managed to miss it. It's unclear to me what skill in 4-way competition has to do with it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #27 March 25, 2005 You just love to argue, don't ya? I think he was just pointing out that if it can happen to a guy with (i assume) over 10,000 jumps, it can happen to anyone. I think this sort of thing is more likely to happen to someone on a hot 4-way team than a regular sport jumper though. Sponsored guys are getting their rigs packed for them, throwing them on, running to the plane, and doing tons of jumps per day. They're also more likely to be using new, less familiar gear and maybe making greater assumptions that it's been handled properly while out of their hands. This is where human factors engineering needs to come into play. The vigil is a very cool device with some great features. It's got the data logger and everything. Does that open it up to more possibility that it'll get screwed with? I mean, I honestly don't remember how to reset my cypres for different elevations of landing area vs airport. I'd have to pull out the manual if the need ever came up. All I ever do with my cypres is turn it on and occasionally check that it's still got a 0. If it had a data logger function, would I be more likely to screw up the landing area elevation setting? Maybe... Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcoller 0 #28 March 26, 2005 I wouldn't say it is vanishingly small... I was having an "all thumbs day" a few months ago and and was having trouble getting the Vigil to wake up. My answer was to keep stabbing the button to see if I could get it to start. I am not sure how I did it but pretty soon everything was reading in meters instead of feet. I turned it off for the jumps I did that day as I wasn't exactly sure what was going on with it (it wasn't until I got home and played with it for awhile that I was sure it was simply displaying in meters vs. something wrong with it). Once it does comes up the display reads PRO or STUDENT or TANDEM. You only miss it if you don't care if it comes up or not... p.s. I haven't had that problem since and am happy with the unit and its capabilities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudOnMyTongue 0 #29 March 26, 2005 My Question about the Vigil is, what does the screen say after it's been turned on after start up has finished? Meaning what would the screen look like/say when you check it later in the day to see if it's on? Do you have to watch the whole start up process to know what mode it is in? Or do you have to physically check? Or I guess more simply, everyone who has knowledge about the Vigil says it's obvious what mode it's in. Please explain to us who don't know why this is so? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #30 March 26, 2005 Immediately after startup, the Vigil flashes "Setup" which allows you to go into the setup functions if you hit the button again before "Setup" goes away (a few seconds). Setup functions include altitude correction, mode change, display change, etc.) If you don't press anything, it'll then display the mode that you're in, Pro, Student, or Tandem, and stays there. So, anyone who looks at their Vigil as they're putting on their rig would, quite easily, know what mode it is in."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudOnMyTongue 0 #31 March 26, 2005 With that information, I would have no concern at all for jumping an AAD that can change modes easily. I think it's a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #32 March 26, 2005 QuoteYou just love to argue, don't ya? it's the prof...he never wants to lose... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,644 #33 March 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou just love to argue, don't ya? it's the prof...he never wants to lose... Incorrect!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specnaz007 0 #34 March 27, 2005 Quote If you don't press anything, it'll then display the mode that you're in, Pro, Student, or Tandem, and stays there. So this means that Solly and his packer did not check this parachute for 14 jumps and did not notice the word TANDEM on the display? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thepollster 0 #35 March 27, 2005 QuoteSo this means that Solly and his packer did not check this parachute for 14 jumps and did not notice the word TANDEM on the display? Why would his packer check his AAD? Packers are paid to pack a main, not to be responsible for the whole parachute system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specnaz007 0 #36 March 27, 2005 QuoteWhy would his packer check his AAD? Packers are paid to pack a main, not to be responsible for the whole parachute system. True I just mean someone should have noticed. (I did not mean or want to point any fingers) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thepollster 0 #37 March 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy would his packer check his AAD? Packers are paid to pack a main, not to be responsible for the whole parachute system. True I just mean someone should have noticed. (I did not mean or want to point any fingers) Yes, someone should have noticed. I will point fingers, and say, in this case, that someone was Solly. He was jumping the rig, it was his responsibility. Luckily, he came out of this okay, but if he didn't, it would have been nobodies fault but his. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #38 March 28, 2005 QuoteSo this means that Solly and his packer did not check this parachute for 14 jumps and did not notice the word TANDEM on the display? What kind of rig does he jump? If it was a Vector, the AAD is under the reserve flap. I dont expect a packer to look under the reserve flap during a main packjob. But I also dont know what kind of rig he jumps. In all my paid packjobs I have never looked at an AAD to see if it was on. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specnaz007 0 #39 March 29, 2005 True. But this brings us back to the question How did this AAD end up in TANDEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adobelover 0 #40 March 30, 2005 I have a Vigil and can not figure out how anyone could "accidently" change the mode without realizing it. After you set the MODE it's set in that same mode until someone changes it, not an easy task...and when you read the display just BEFORE EVERY JUMP...it VERY CLEARLY says PRO, Tandem or Student. You would have to be BLIND not to notice this for 14 jumps! The Vigil will stay on for about 14 hours after it's set then it automatically shuts itself off and so needs to be turned back on the next day you jump, but it STAYS in the SAME MODE every time. Just my "2 cents" worth. I LOVE MY VIGIL!_________________________________________ Old age ain't no place for sissies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specnaz007 0 #41 March 30, 2005 Sounds more and more it was not accidently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #42 March 30, 2005 I have changed mine to the different settings(Pro, Tandem, Student) to show people how it's done. There's always that possibility.______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #43 March 30, 2005 Quote You would have to be BLIND not to notice this for 14 jumps! For the jumper in question (who is the current World Champ in 4way)....14 jumps could be one DAY."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #44 March 30, 2005 The 14 jumps occurred on three separate days. This incident certainly reinforces the old adage: "Look before you leap." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #45 March 30, 2005 QuoteThe 14 jumps occurred on three separate days. This incident certainly reinforces the old adage: "Look before you leap." Bill, care to provide your opinion on how this unit was switched from Pro to Tandem?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,644 #46 March 30, 2005 Quote Luckily, he came out of this okay, but if he didn't, it would have been nobodies fault but his. A premature deployment at 2,500ft (as reported) is a hazard to other jumpers too.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thepollster 0 #47 March 31, 2005 QuoteQuote Luckily, he came out of this okay, but if he didn't, it would have been nobodies fault but his. A premature deployment at 2,500ft (as reported) is a hazard to other jumpers too. I don't know how you skydive, but if I am above someone who is at 2,500ft, I would not only expect them to deploy, but hope so. If I hit their deploying canopy, it would be my fault, even this was on a WR bigway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #48 March 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote Luckily, he came out of this okay, but if he didn't, it would have been nobodies fault but his. A premature deployment at 2,500ft (as reported) is a hazard to other jumpers too. I don't know how you skydive, but if I am above someone who is at 2,500ft, I would not only expect them to deploy, but hope so. If I hit their deploying canopy, it would be my fault, even this was on a WR bigway. 2-out means reduced manouverability. Reduced manouverability is an extra hazard factor (extra point of attention for other jumpers). To my opinion not a large factor, but it is a factor! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #49 March 31, 2005 QuoteQuote Luckily, he came out of this okay, but if he didn't, it would have been nobodies fault but his. A premature deployment at 2,500ft (as reported) is a hazard to other jumpers too. A deployment at 2,500 ft. (reported as 2090) in not considered premature by most standards. Why would the fact that it was deployed by an AAD change that? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #50 March 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote Luckily, he came out of this okay, but if he didn't, it would have been nobodies fault but his. A premature deployment at 2,500ft (as reported) is a hazard to other jumpers too. A deployment at 2,500 ft. (reported as 2090) in not considered premature by most standards. Why would the fact that it was deployed by an AAD change that? Sparky I think he means a premature AAD/reserve opening? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
