Reserve Horseshoe?

[pullhigh 0]

I, along with a couple of others, witnessed this past weekend a cutaway and reserve deployment that somehow resulted in a horseshoe configuration.

The jumper was an old-timer who just became re-current after years of not jumping.

The rig was a Mirage G3 (with new mod) and the reserve is a PD176.

The jumper deployed his main at approx 4500' agl and it sniveld until he cut it away at approx 2000' agl. The jumper went back into freefall, and got stable again. I cannot testify to what altitude he was at when he pulled his reserve ripcord, but what I was was this:

I saw the reserve bridle in a horseshoe type of configuration, with no pilot chute visible. I never saw the pilot chute or freebag leave the container, and the jumper got a reserve parachute just as he passed below my line of site (trees between us). I'd guesstimate it to have been about 500' agl.

At some point, the CYPRES did fire, but it is not what deployed the reserve. The cutter had fired, but the loop was not cut.

The jumper is fine, and all gear was recovered. The only thing noticeable about the container or freebag is that the reserve pilot chute spring has a slight bend in it (maybe 15-20 degrees).

The Mirage has a very strong spring, how could this have happened? For the bridle to have been out, the container had to have opened. It seems hard to believe that a 40 pound spring would not have gotten out of the burble, unless there was some other issues.

Ganja

[KellyF 16]

I would say that unless the PC stayed attached to the jumper or his equipment, it was probably a hesitation. If he was near terminal and pulled flat and stable, it is entirely possible that the PC didn't clear the burble.

[Hooknswoop 19]

And if he was unstable for the reserve deployment, the reserve PC could have entangled on the jumper.

Derek

[psychonitro 0]

quite scaring, hope never find myself in such a situation!

[GravityGirl 0]

If he was unstable or pitching head low, he might have snagget the PC with his foot.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[mark 105]

Quote

If ... might ...

As long as we're speculating here, the bent pilot chute spring may be a result of it shifiting in a loose pack job; the loose pack job would also cause a poor launch from insufficient spring compression.

Compared to a RWS reserve pilot chute, Mirage's pilot chute does not have as much drag if it launches sideways to the relative wind.

Mark

[Ruffles 0]

How could the reserve come out if the pilot chute was still in the tray? Can do you get a horse shoe mal (without tangling your limbs) on a ripcord deployed main? I can't see it.. help.

[pullhigh 0]

From the time he cutaway, from the time anything came out, he would have been pretty close to back to terminal I'd say. There was no evidence of any tangling or snagging. Jumper said that he never felt anything wrappped or snagged on him anywhere. I think looking over his shoulder might have cleared it from his burble, but some things we'll never know for sure.

Ganja

[Pendejo 0]

To add a little to the story....

I was also there and witnessed the reserve deployment. The pilot chute didn't come off his back until the reserve bridle had lifted the freebag far enough for the lines and bridle to be completely extended. He was flat and stable at pull time (reserve and main). I was told that it is not possible for the reserve bridle to deploy the reserve that way (no that doesn't make sense to me either).

When he fired the reserve it looked like the pilot chute lifted off his back about 6 inches and then fell back to his butt. My question was that if it wasn't "hooked" on something why didn't it lift before the freebag did. I'm sure this is a simple thing to understand.... But I'm far from anything even remotely resembling a rigger.

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[wardhessig 0]

Hey Pendejo,
Just a couple questions, where were you when you witnessed it, in the air with him, if so how far away, or on the ground? And about the reserve freebag bridle, it was originally designed that way in hopes to create sufficient drag to deploy the reserve in the event of a horseshoe. However, that is actually a myth, it won't create enough drag. There is tons of data and testing proving that its not possible. They even sewed nylon pockets all down the bridle and that still wouldn't deploy it. If you watch the movie bread-away some of that footage where the bridle is just trailing behind are some of the actual test jumps to see if the bridle would deploy the reserve. Congrats on the aff by the way.

[Kris 0]

Man...I really want to hear more info on this...

I'd like to know what caused the hesitation of the reserve PC as this is a rig that had the mandatory mod done...

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

The only thing noticeable about the container or freebag is that the reserve pilot chute spring has a slight bend in it (maybe 15-20 degrees).

If the PC was in this condition BEFORE the deployment, that could explain why it didn't launch properly.

Derek

[mark 105]

Quote

I'd like to know what caused the hesitation of the reserve PC as this is a rig that had the mandatory mod done.

Moving the Cypres cutter location is intended to reduce the chance of a container lock after a Cypres fire -- a kind of total malfunction. In this incident, the original poster writes that the container was open, so the change of cutter location wouldn't matter unless you'd like to speculate the pilot chute snagged on the cutter, something nobody has suggested and which I'd think is extremely unlikely.

Mark

[pullhigh 0]

Some things we'll never know for sure....

The rig is now at Mirage, and we are awaiting the details of there findings.

Ganja

[Pendejo 0]

Hey Ward!

How is the new job treating you? I was on the ground when it happened in front of the hanger. I had a really good "profile" view of him when it happened. I really don't understand the bridle not pulling it thing... How can a 1/2 in. bridle cause my main pin to be pulled and the main d-bag to come off my back (classic horseshoe mal) yet a bridle that looks like its 5 or 6 times that size not pull the reserve out. No I'm not trying to start a hugh debate. I really am just STUPID and am trying to understand how that works... Its important to be because, from what I saw happen.... If it had been me wearing my wing jacket we would not be having this conversation.

My real feelings are that we will never know the who, what, when, where, and how.... But it really makes me wonder how a rig with such a strong reserve spring could launch like that. They say there is an exception for every rule... Sounds like my friend is lucky to be that exception.

Thanks for the congrats on the aff thing. It was without a doubt the longest week of my life (but well worth it).

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[wardhessig 0]

Just to answer a couple of questions presented here on this forum. All I know is from the data and the testing that we have on a reserve bridle creating sufficient drag. All of the testing shows that it just isn't sufficient drag to pull the bag from the container. Now.....if the bag were to get into the airstream, such as when it falls out of an open main container, the bag itself will create enough drag to trail behind as you have seen on video but the bridle line won't pull it out. You can see on videos of a main bag out of the container and until it gets into clean air it will just sit there.
The reserve spring did have a slight bend in it but not even close enough of a bend for the energy of the spring to be directed out the side on launch. The energy of the launch on all ten tests performed here was normal and within satisfactory perameters. If you have seen how the psb mod is done then you know that there is nothing for anything to be snagged on and that it could not be a factor in this situation. Even if the cypress had cut the loop rather then the jumper deploying the reserve, since the modification was done it wouldnt have affected reserve deployment in any way, thats the reason we are having the mod done, so that there is no chance of anything less than a normal reserve deployment. Unfortunately, no matter how strong a reserve pilot chute spring is, there is a chance of it getting into the jumpers burble on launch. The stronger the spring the lesser the chance of this, hence the strength of our spring but it is a phenomenon that just can't be prevented entirely. As far as this particular instance, from our findings of the rig, it performed as it should have with no defect in equipment whatsoever. In my PERSONAL opinion it was a burble type situation that cleared and but you're right, we will never know for absolutely sure, but I urge the skydiving community to not be so quick to say the sky is falling about our psb mod. We did it to make our extremely safe rigs even safer. If anyone doesnt have a thorough understanding of the psb and the whats and hows of it feel free to contact me at the factory and I will be glad to explain it.

[Pendejo 0]

Ward,

Thanks for taking the time to explain about the reserve bridle. It sounds like it will be one of those things that we will never be able to explain. I don't think it had a lot to do with Mirage or the rigger that packed the rig. I also think that if the jumper had started his emergency procedures higher and had checked over his shoulder after a couple of seconds it would not have been such an issue.

We can "what if" it to death.... But the bottom line is stay current on more than just pulling your handles...

Pendejo

He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!!

[dorbie 0]

I'll add this to my list of reasons to get a skyhook RSL.

[pullhigh 0]

Ward,

Congratulations, until I read your reply a couple of times, it took me a while to figure out why were speaking for Mirage. I hadn;t heard you had gone to work there, congratulations.

I'll be honest, my first impression was that the mod might have had something to do with it. I think that'd be about anyone's knee jerk reaction. I have since done alot of digging around and looking at things, and I have found that not to be the case. It looks to me like a lazy spring launch for whatever reason must have been the culprit, along with as Pendejo says, not looking over his shoulder.

I do have one quesiton about the mod though. And I'm sure if I kept digging, I'd find the answer somewhere, but since you're here... When SSK first developed the CYPRES, they said that the cutter head had to be below or behind the spring somewhere. Has that changed? I know a few manufacturers, including Mirage have it above the spring now, but is it just done, or is there something from SSK approving this? (In writing) I'm just trying to figure it all out.

Ganja

[mark 105]

Quote

When SSK first developed the CYPRES, they said that the cutter head had to be below or behind the spring somewhere.

I'm sure Kai Koerner (dz.com username "AirtecKai") would be surprised that SSK developed the Cypres.

On my SSK Sweethogs, the Cypres cutter is installed above the pilot chute, on the reserve container bottom flap.

Mark

[pullhigh 0]

My bad... It is still early here, I'm just waking up...

[wardhessig 0]

Thanks Ganj,
Well I am not absolutely sure on this but I think Airtec actually wanted the cutter to be above the spring originally but ok'd it other places for aesthetic reasons......However I am not totally positive of this.

What I am positive of is...our designer worked very closely with airtec (Kai) about the moving of the cutter position for a while before we officially announced the psb, lots of testing and other work went into the psb long before it went public. thanks again for the congrats.
shrek