kallend 1,643 #1 March 18, 2004 The "45 Degree Rule" for exit separation DOES NOT WORK and IS DANGEROUS. Just thought I'd mention it here, to reach a wider audience than the safety and training forum. Details available in these threads: www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=951741#951741 and www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=941224#941224 and at my web site www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #2 March 18, 2004 You giving the seminar again this year at SDC? I would really like to sit in on it sometime. And even though i can't jump, i'll be at the spring expo. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #3 March 18, 2004 QuoteYou giving the seminar again this year at SDC? I would really like to sit in on it sometime. And even though i can't jump, i'll be at the spring expo. Yes. See you there... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #4 March 18, 2004 Hey John, Is there a way you can get the old-timers in the sport to listen to you on this? I heard you give this lecture during my student status at the first Expo -- I will attend it again this year -- and have been a strong believer in it since, and I tend to think a good portion of newbies will listen to the logic. However, I run into a vast amount of up-jumpers that feel the 45 degree has worked for them for xxxx amount of jumps, therefore it works. Bascially all the arguments against it listed in the threads you listed above. At my experience level in the sport, an S&TA, DZO, or the decision maker at a DZ is not going to listen to some kid spouting off reasons why they should change their exit order and seperation practices. Usually at these DZs I just ask to go out last and request a go around._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #5 March 18, 2004 QuoteHey John, Is there a way you can get the old-timers in the sport to listen to you on this? I heard you give this lecture during my student status at the first Expo -- I will attend it again this year -- and have been a strong believer in it since, and I tend to think a good portion of newbies will listen to the logic. However, I run into a vast amount of up-jumpers that feel the 45 degree has worked for them for xxxx amount of jumps, therefore it works. Bascially all the arguments against it listed in the threads you listed above. At my experience level in the sport, an S&TA, DZO, or the decision maker at a DZ is not going to listen to some kid spouting off reasons why they should change their exit order and seperation practices. Usually at these DZs I just ask to go out last and request a go around. Getting them to listen in the first place is the most difficult part. Bill von Novak's video is pretty convincing to those who don't believe in physics.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #6 March 18, 2004 QuoteBill von Novak's video is pretty convincing to those who don't believe in physics. p'faw - "Physics", it's all spin anyway.... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #7 March 18, 2004 Quote Getting them to listen in the first place is the most difficult part. Bill von Novak's video is pretty convincing to those who don't believe in physics. Have you added the video to your presentation this year?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #8 March 18, 2004 QuoteQuote Getting them to listen in the first place is the most difficult part. Bill von Novak's video is pretty convincing to those who don't believe in physics. Have you added the video to your presentation this year? Yes, significant revisions this year.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clownburner 0 #9 March 18, 2004 Quotep'faw - "Physics", it's all spin anyway.... If that's a quantum mechanics joke, it's pretty damn funny.... 7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez "I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #10 March 18, 2004 Anyone that believes the 45 degree rule works should come out to SDC for the Spring Expo and hear John talk. It is a real eye opener and is all based in fact. John, do you know what time your seminars are?Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,425 #11 March 18, 2004 >If that's a quantum mechanics joke, it's pretty damn funny.... Pretty strange if you ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #12 March 18, 2004 Quote>If that's a quantum mechanics joke, it's pretty damn funny.... Pretty strange if you ask me. Third time's a charm.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #13 March 18, 2004 QuoteAnyone that believes the 45 degree rule works should come out to SDC for the Spring Expo and hear John talk. It is a real eye opener and is all based in fact. John, do you know what time your seminars are? Nope. Still waiting to hear.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #14 March 18, 2004 QuoteNope. Still waiting to hear. Well let us know if you hear when. Shameless bump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #15 March 18, 2004 Quote Getting them to listen in the first place is the most difficult part. Bill von Novak's video is pretty convincing to those who don't believe in physics. got a link? FYI.. zhills finally changed the exit order to flat-fliers out first... course now all the freefliers are mad cause they don't get to sit by the door and there's traffic in their way of the pond.... poor babies. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eeneR 1 #16 March 18, 2004 QuoteJohn, do you know what time your seminars are? The schedule is posted on SDC Event page Click "March" then click the "2004 All-American Spring Expo" for the Info and you can get to the schedule from there. John, you are 11:40 - 12:40 on Sat and 2-3 on Sun.She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #17 March 18, 2004 QuoteQuote Getting them to listen in the first place is the most difficult part. Bill von Novak's video is pretty convincing to those who don't believe in physics. got a link? FYI.. zhills finally changed the exit order to flat-fliers out first... course now all the freefliers are mad cause they don't get to sit by the door and there's traffic in their way of the pond.... poor babies. Yes, I got an e-mail from tk giving my web site much of the blame credit.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #18 March 18, 2004 QuoteaYes, I got an e-mail from tk giving my web site much of the blame credit. Well, how does it feel to have effected some change in the sport for the better? Feels good doesn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,425 #19 March 18, 2004 >got a link? http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=pquade&templatefn=FileSharing.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.3.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en File name is 45degreesBIG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #20 March 18, 2004 QuoteQuote Getting them to listen in the first place is the most difficult part. Bill von Novak's video is pretty convincing to those who don't believe in physics. got a link? FYI.. zhills finally changed the exit order to flat-fliers out first... course now all the freefliers are mad cause they don't get to sit by the door and there's traffic in their way of the pond.... poor babies. Here's a link www.cajunchickens.com/files/45degrees.mp4 ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #21 March 18, 2004 I'm not great at physics, so I'm probably just not grasping the way this video was setup, but it seems to me that you would have to see the jumpers pass through the frame almost immediately, simply do to the placement of the camera and the close proximity of the falling jumpers. It seems like you would have to wait for the airspeed of the plane to carry it far enough from the jumpers that the jumpers would "drift" back across the 45 degree line, in order to determine when the jumpers were at a 45 degree angle from the plane. I'm not saying the 45 degree rule is accurate--I've never given it much thought--I'm just not sure how the video disproves it. I've never seen jumpers look like they were even close to 45 degrees as quickly after exiting as that video shows.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,425 #22 March 18, 2004 >I'm not great at physics, so I'm probably just not grasping the way this video was setup . .. A camera in the front bottom corner of the door pointed down at exactly 45 degrees. >I've never seen jumpers look like they were even close to 45 >degrees as quickly after exiting as that video shows. That's because people can't accurately judge a 45 degree angle without help. It takes people a while to learn even how to look straight down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyPsycho 0 #23 March 19, 2004 Quote>I'm not great at physics, so I'm probably just not grasping the way this video was setup . .. A camera in the front bottom corner of the door pointed down at exactly 45 degrees. >I've never seen jumpers look like they were even close to 45 >degrees as quickly after exiting as that video shows. That's because people can't accurately judge a 45 degree angle without help. It takes people a while to learn even how to look straight down. i cant for the life of me figure out why people, dont just immediately stuff their head out the door when the group in front exits, and WATCH CLOSELY until there is plenty of safe horizontal DISTANCE........not ANGLE. if the groundspeed is slow, the angle isnt going to get less as the group falls from the plane, because they are falling faster down then the plane is flying away. angle dosent mean shit......its horizontal distance. _______________________________ HK MP5SD.........silence is golden Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyPsycho 0 #24 March 19, 2004 FYI.. zhills finally changed the exit order to flat-fliers out first... course now all the freefliers are mad cause they don't get to sit by the door and there's traffic in their way of the pond.... poor babies. jerm.....you skydiving racist.......are you saying that only freefliers swoop the pond? or they have to get there first....... heh _______________________________ HK MP5SD.........silence is golden Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,643 #25 March 19, 2004 Quote>I'm not great at physics, so I'm probably just not grasping the way this video was setup . .. A camera in the front bottom corner of the door pointed down at exactly 45 degrees. >I've never seen jumpers look like they were even close to 45 >degrees as quickly after exiting as that video shows. That's because people can't accurately judge a 45 degree angle without help. It takes people a while to learn even how to look straight down. Was it a wide angle lens? That would make it look closer than it actually was.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Was it a wide angle lens? That would make it look closer than it actually was.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
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