eipmoez 0 #1 October 20, 2004 Hi, I've done a little searching on the forums, but the information is scattered and mostly catered to in-freefall or in-wingsuit requirements. I was wondering what the ultimate device is for accurate altitude and position measurement while being under canopy. Consider for example if I wanted to jump several different canopies many times, and analyse altitude-loss and distance traveled while doing different types of turns. I would basically need a device that allows me to download a 3D path to a computer. Does something like that exist? Or do I have to combine the results of a GPS tracking device and altimeter myself? Thanks, Eipmoez $e^{i\pi}+1=0$ how humbling, an error Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usskydiver 0 #2 October 20, 2004 Would the downloaded data from a ProTrack or Neptune be accurate enough? Tim T. Team Paraclete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #3 October 20, 2004 A GPS can do everything you need to do. They measure altitude and position, but the altitude measurement isn't as accurate as the position measurement. But probably accurate enough for your needs. As for what model of GPS though, I have no idea. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eipmoez 0 #4 October 20, 2004 QuoteWould the downloaded data from a ProTrack or Neptune be accurate enough? Does either the ProTrack or Neptune do a lot under canopy stil? I'll go check their websites, thanks! QuoteA GPS can do everything you need to do. I'm worried that it might be accurate enough actually. I would think that for anything useful, you'd need accuracy to at least something less than 2 feet. Mmm, perhaps a gyroscopic device to measure acceleration would be better. Thanks! Eipmoez $e^{i\pi}+1=0$ how humbling, an error Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,106 #5 October 20, 2004 One of our local Birdmen wears both the ProTrack and a GPS which he velcro bands on to his Bicep. After each jump, he goes to his laptop, downloads the Protrack info and enters the GPS info into a spreadsheet then goes home and merges the data.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #6 October 20, 2004 Quote Does either the ProTrack or Neptune do a lot under canopy stil? I'll go check their websites, thanks! I don't know about the ProTrack, but I remember I once extended the timeline on a Neptune jump graph in Paralog (don't have it on my comp right now) and it showed my vertical speed right down to landing. So yeah, I guess that could work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #7 October 20, 2004 I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to do, but I can't imagine that you're going to get better measurements with an accelrometer or barometric altimeter than with GPS. You won't get 2 foot accuracy in altitude, but I don't see any way you can get that kind of accuracy. But I also can't imagine why you'd need 2 foot accuracy either. I mean, how do you plan to make the exact same control inputs into each canopy to make an accurate comparison? You're going to have far more than 2 feet of difference between each trial with the same canopy... Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #8 October 20, 2004 A few companies make devices that do what your asking and then some, L&B makes one as does Atair I believe. L&B doesn't sell their unit to the general public and Atair's is pretty expensive if memory serves me correctly. They are basically black box units or data loggers that need to be downloaded and then analyized. Thats a really quick and fast on the industrial/manufacturer type of devices. A more practical one is the simple GPS. The garmin Vista is a pretty good one as it has glide ratio data that you could monitor real time on the screen and then of course download to the garmin Mapsource software which gives you your data readouts(see attachments). If you need something more specific there are many types of GPS graphing software out there that I can point you towards but they require you spend some time learning them. The garmin mapsource and Garmin GPS system is realitively cheap and the learning curve is not steep. You basically plug the GPS into your computer and use the mapsource to download the data and your done."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #9 October 21, 2004 There is a thing called a Somat that does what you are talking about. It is used in parachute testing and can record up to 8 parameters. Thing like deployment load and duration, rate of descent, altitude, forward speed. One problem, they cost somewhere over $5,000. They need a power source and have a limited record window. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #10 October 21, 2004 Lou, does altitude hold steady on GPS now that SA is not part of the picture. Back in the day I'd watch my altitude bounce up and down a few hundred feet. I still wonder how responsive it would be - easier solution for what this guy wants to do *might* be to wear a digital altimeter and read off the altitude before and after manuevers into a recording video cam. Obviously only applies if he is qualfied to jump a camera outfit. Short of that, a voice recorder might do. Much easier than trying to match the output graphs with what he was doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #11 October 21, 2004 I have a Garmin etrex-vista. It uses a barametric altimeter and is waas enabled. It can be set to log long/lat/altitude/time up to once every second. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #12 October 21, 2004 QuoteLou, does altitude hold steady on GPS now that SA is not part of the picture yes it does and WAAS enabled devices are even more accurate. What he is looking to do a few feet off won't make that big a difference,3meters for a off the shelf item is pretty good IMO. Anything that gets you gnats ass precise is gonna cost ya more bank. The smart way to do this would be to have a preplanned set of manuvers for specific altitudes. ie: 10k start 180 riser turn,etc. Once you download the data you could compare the readouts to where you know you started a manuver. While not perfect it will give you a pretty good idea of what was going on."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #13 February 26, 2005 Ask and you shall receive. Spurred on by talk here and by my own desire to see better GPS data analysis. I linked up with Klaus of Paralog and we have come up with the simple solution to what you and other have been looking for. So for those of you who jump with GPS units or those who've always wanted precise data from your skydives and canopy flight, now it is possible. So all the swoopers out there can dial in data from different turns and different canopies. CRW dogs can capture their distances covered, flight characteristics and glide ratios while in formation. The average skydiver can also track their performance on a dive and subsequent canopy flight. Trackers and wingsuits will really dig seeing the track overlaid on satellite imagery along with data such as glide ratio, horizontal speed, and distance covered. You can check it out HERE"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #14 February 27, 2005 Upcomming Titan from Alti-2 sounds like it could make this all a lot easier too. Not too sure cause details are sparse, but isn't a GPS/Alti what they're going for there? Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #15 February 27, 2005 Yes it will make things easier as it is my understanding that the Titan will be able to download it's data to a PC for evaluation using software like the Paralog GPS edition. For swoopers like yourself, you will be able to see where you were in the turn(degree of turn) and what amount of altitude you lost as a result and where your canopy planed out at after the turn. Like I said, this is good stuff for everybody interested in improving and charting their progress."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #16 May 6, 2005 For those interested in Beta testing the New Paralog GPS software click HERE or visit the Paralog website "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #17 May 7, 2005 hands down the ultimate device: http://atairaerospace.com/das/ be sure to check out the software.Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #18 May 7, 2005 http://atairaerospace.com/das/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #19 May 7, 2005 Whats something like the datalogger hardware and software cost? The DHU looks pretty bulky, is it possible to put it in a jumpsuit for a normal skydive?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #20 May 7, 2005 Is there any way to account for winds? GPS edoes not do this, and will only measure distance covered relative to the ground. To get good, position relative to the airmass you are flying in is more relevent. I've seen plans for a low tech device that would do just that, but so far as I know, such a device has never been built. It also would not work inside a jumpsuit. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #21 May 7, 2005 QuoteLou, does altitude hold steady on GPS now that SA is not part of the picture No, it doesn't. I'd estimate the altitude accuracy has about 10X the error of the Lat/Lon. (if not more). It's easy to verify, just turn the system on, allow it to acquire a lock, and watch the altitude for a few minutes. I've always witnessed a big drift. It's good to know the altitude you're actually at when doing the test. I've seen over 400ft. of error with SA off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #22 May 7, 2005 the dhu fits in the palm of your hand. and is slightly wider than a hand held gps. the case is billet machined aluminum and is pretty much bullet proof. we also manufacture a vest which holds the dhu and various sensors for performing datalogging on personnel canopies and harness/containers. as far as true air speed, a variety of sensors can be used and data logged by our dhu. sincerely, dan<><>Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #23 May 7, 2005 Quotethe dhu fits in the palm of your hand. and is slightly wider than a hand held gps Wow, the picture on the web page had me thinking it was phone book size. Something that size is not a problem at all but I am sure it costs more the an OTS GPS system. What does something like that run if you don't mind me asking? PM me if you prefer."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #24 May 8, 2005 the dhu and software is about $10k inertial or load link sensors are additional. the units btw, are being used by: us army, darpa, nasa, various parachute and uav companies, several foriegn militaries and special forces. <><>Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
