Started to spin on AFF course stage 4

[Skyper 0]

use all means to improve yourself. And `just jumping from the plane´ is certainly not the only way to improve your free fly abilities. Even more, some abilities you cannot develop by just jumping from the plane. Good PLF is impossible to learn with `just jumping`. Spinning without gettig dizzy, the same story. Even more, tunnel time is much cheaper than a jump. For me, a jump is relaxation and not the training. If you have any worries prior the jump, I would say don´t do it. Those worries tend to enlarge on the altitude...

[davelepka 4]

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Those worries tend to enlarge on the altitude...

So how did anyone learn to jump in the 40 years before 'real' tunnels came into existance? How about the 90% of jumpers worldwide without access to a tunnel short of traveling 100's of miles (or more)?

The guy spun on level 4, on his first try, after 3 solid jumps. He doesn't need a friend, or a backrub, or a tunnel, he just needs to re-train, and make another jump.

It was his first shot at a jump where he wasn't pinned in between two instructors, and he got out of control. There's nothing unusual or outrageous about any part of that, and I would describe it as 'not neccesarliy unexpected' on a level 4.

He got dumped out, spanked on the opening (which he deserved) and landed without incident. He was properly trained the recovery technique, and just needs a re-jump.

No offence to any pussies out there, but this is a prime example of the pussification of skydiving.

"I've spun out of control and been dumped out by an instructor 8 times in a row"

"I've rode the plane down 5 times in a row because I'm terrified of going unstable in freefall"

"I only have one leg and I'm not sure I can get stable in freefall"

To all of the above, tunnel, tunnel, tunnel.

To a guy who spun up the first time an instructor have him a little space in frefall? It's called a re-jump, that's all he needs.

[Skyper 0]

are you sugesting that people going to the tunnel are "pussies"?

[sundevil777 94]

I think it is very reasonable for him to go to a tunnel, especially since there is a very good one close to him. I would think it reasonable for a DZ such as Perris/Eloy to consider an AFF program that has some tunnel time as part of the training. The result would be better, fewer rejumps, better retention, all good things.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Jimbas 0]

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do you have any tips to be not nervous the next time you have to jump? Because I can tell you that I lost some confidence.

Maybe a dose of reality will help you -

You lost confidence? Where did you get this confidence in the first place? By making 3 jumps that went well, with two of them being harness-hold jumps from exit to opening?

Get real. It's not like you have 100's of jumps and could not get stable or depploy your own canopy, you're a STUDENT and what you did was learn a lesson. Your buddy makes it look easy? All that means is that your buddy hasn't been unstable yet, who knows how 'easy' it will be for him when he finally loses stability for the first time.

You jumped, you tried, you lived. Move on with your training. This won't be the last set back you have in skydiving, so nut-up, listen to your instructor and get on with the re-jump. You only partially failed in that you didn't remain stable. Your instructor dumped you out when she had the chance, but for all we know you might have dumped yourself out before pull time if she didn't (that's a hint to remember your altitude awareness, no matter which direction you're facing, pull time is pull time, no exceptions).

No offence to others, but fuck the tunnel. Get back in the plane, and make a real skydive. You know what you need to do, so just do it. Keep in mind your instructors also know what happened, and will train and treat you accordingly.

Most of your jumps have been fine, build on that, and just get on with it.

Best answer on the whole thread. Cheers!

[davelepka 4]

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I think it is very reasonable for him to go to a tunnel, especially since there is a very good one close to him

That might be true, but come on, is anyone really that surprised that a guy with 3 jumps got on his back and into a spin the first time he was 'let loose' in freefall? Look at how many experienced jumpers have trouble holding a heading when they learn to backfly, this guy ended up on his back on his 4th jump, and 'big surprise', he started to spin.

The tunnel might help, but so would another jump, and combined with the other jump is the lesson not to over-react to a situation, but to proceed forward in an organized and logical fashion. He was debriefed, retrained for spin recovery, and I would assume that the next jump ground-prep would include some extra focus on a good arch and relaxing in freefall.

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I would think it reasonable for a DZ such as Perris/Eloy to consider an AFF program that has some tunnel time as part of the training.

Naturally, because they own tunnels and that sells more tunnel time, and introduces a new flyer to the tunnel who might book furture time.

Aside from that, I'd be interested to hear from AFFI's at either Perris or Eloy what the protocol is for sending an AFF student to the tunnel before they make another jump. How many tries do they give a student before they send them for corrective training in the tunnel? What sort of behaviors does a student have to exhibit in order to be directed toward the tunnel?

[davelepka 4]

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are you sugesting that people going to the tunnel are "pussies"?

No, I'm suggesting that the people who are ready to ship this guy to the tunnel because he spun one time on his 4th jump are acting like pussies.

How about give the guy a chance to step-up to the plate and take care of business? What happened to him isn't out of the ordinary, or entirely unexpected. he should do what students do, and learn something from the experience, and move on with his training.

Let's face it, if he really messed up big time, his instructor wouldn't have met him in the LZ with a smile and trained him for the re-jump. She would have told him he was going to die, and that he needed to hit the (excellent and nearby) tunnel before even thinking about going near a plane again.

She seemed to think he was ready to try again, and she was present when he 'went for a spin'. If she doesn't think it's a big deal, then neither do I, and neither should the student.

[danielcroft 2]

Dave Lepka win.

IMO you can learn a lot from the tunnel but not overcoming your fear, altitude awareness or tracking.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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So how did anyone learn to jump in the 40 years before 'real' tunnels came into existance? How about the 90% of jumpers worldwide without access to a tunnel short of traveling 100's of miles (or more)

First let me say that I am biased: I manage/work at a tunnel.

Second, flight simulators are used extensively in aviation. They are a much better place to learn new skills than in the sky for real for several reasons. A pilot that shuns flight simulators limits how fast they can learn new skills and maintain those skills. Flight simulators has revolutionized pilot training. Pilots are trained better, at a lower cost, on more complicated and faster aircraft than was ever possible before.

Skydiving is expensive, learning to skydive even more so. Going to a wind tunnel and working with a coach that knows what their doing and what the student needs to know to get through the AFF course virtually ensures they will complete the course without having to repeat any jumps. It will also improve their performance under canopy.

That last point is important. The vast majority of injuries occur under a fully inflated and functional canopy.

I know, I know, you are thinking, “How can a wind tunnel improve an AFF student’s performance under canopy?!?!?!?!?!?”

People perform better and learn more when they are relaxed and not completely freaked out.

AFF students experience several ‘peaks’ and ‘valleys’ of anxiety on a typical AFF jump. On exit, they peak and then begin to relax a bit as the skydive progresses. As pull time nears, their anxiety level peaks again, followed by a small valley and then peaks again during deployment as they hope the canopy opens. Then they begin to relax and finally peak again for landing. If the initial free fall peak can be minimized, the following peaks are not as severe and the student learns more and performs better overall.

It is no secret that flying a wind tunnel enhances free fall performance. The student can take the skills and confidence they gained from a wind tunnel to the sky. Their fee fall skills will be more than adequate to pass the AFF course with about 15 minutes of tunnel time. This means they will be more relaxed and able to focus and fly the canopy much better than if the skydive went poorly. Instead of trying to learn to completely different skills (free fall and canopy piloting) on the same skydive, they have the free fall skills dialed and are just learning how to fly the canopy.

Having to repeat AFF jumps or landing injuries causes many students to move on to other endeavors. No one likes to feel like a failure and no one likes to get hurt. The tunnel address both of these issues.

Derek V

[davelepka 4]

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Second, flight simulators are used extensively in aviation. They are a much better place to learn new skills than in the sky for real for several reasons. A pilot that shuns flight simulators limits how fast they can learn new skills and maintain those skills. Flight simulators has revolutionized pilot training. Pilots are trained better, at a lower cost, on more complicated and faster aircraft than was ever possible before.

Indeed, and skydivers are likewise learning more in tunnels and flying in ways we never dreamed of 10 years ago. VRW, 'nuff said.

However (and you knew there would be a 'however'), flight simulators are not used for primary training. The student needs to actually climb into an airplane and take it aloft.

The same goes for jumpers. If a student proves to be 'stuck', then a tunnel may be the solution to their 'problem', but a spin on your first shot at level 4 is hardly a 'problem', and to take a skydiving student out of skydiving when there is no problem is just dumb.

Let's face it, anytime you go into something you have never done before, the learning curve is off the charts. This guy went into level 4 with no experience in freefall not boxed in with an instructor on each side, and it showed in his performance. Now he's been there and done that, and on top of it all did it the hard way. He's in the ideal position to go back up there, minus the fear of the 'unknown', and overcome the adversity and really succeed on many different levels, and there's no reason to take that away from him.

Beyond that, the tunnel does offer a far better venue for learning body flight, and actual jumps will never be able to match the value, duration or repetition of tunnel time. In the end, tunnel flying is tunnel flying, and skydiving is skydiving, and the OP is a skydiving student, so let's keep it that way.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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However (and you knew there would be a 'however'), flight simulators are not used for primary training. The student needs to actually climb into an airplane and take it aloft.

Part of my PPL course included a PC-based flight simulator. I could use the flight sim to 'fly' the flight the evening before the flight and when I actually flew the next day, it was very easy. I knew what to expect and when. I credit the flight simulator with making the course easy, less stressful, and not ever failing a flight.

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The same goes for jumpers. If a student proves to be 'stuck', then a tunnel may be the solution to their 'problem', but a spin on your first shot at level 4 is hardly a 'problem', and to take a skydiving student out of skydiving when there is no problem is just dumb.

I am not saying take the jumper out of the sky anymore than using a flight sim took me out of the sky. Use the tunnel to almost ensure success in the sky. Use it to compliment your skydiving training. Identify and fix problems to prevent them before they cost the student a repeat jump.

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Let's face it, anytime you go into something you have never done before, the learning curve is off the charts. This guy went into level 4 with no experience in freefall not boxed in with an instructor on each side, and it showed in his performance. Now he's been there and done that, and on top of it all did it the hard way. He's in the ideal position to go back up there, minus the fear of the 'unknown', and overcome the adversity and really succeed on many different levels, and there's no reason to take that away from him.

Beyond that, the tunnel does offer a far better venue for learning body flight, and actual jumps will never be able to match the value, duration or repetition of tunnel time. In the end, tunnel flying is tunnel flying, and skydiving is skydiving, and the OP is a skydiving student, so let's keep it that way.

It sounds to me, and correct me if I am wrong, that you advocate the school of hard knocks. Just as pilots have discovered that simulators are indispensable tools for training, skydivers have found the same benefits from wind tunnels. Mistakes in the sky can be expensive, mistakes in the simulator are cheap.

Flight sims are flight sims. They will never replace airplanes. But they are invaluable for flight training and always will be.

Why not take advantage of every training tool?

Derek V

[popsjumper 2]

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Aside from that, I'd be interested to hear from AFFI's at either Perris or Eloy what the protocol is for sending an AFF student to the tunnel before they make another jump.

So...he was on his back and spinning at 8.5?
I'd like to hear why he was dumped, on his back, at 8.5.
Roll him over and let him try again!
He lost 15 seconds of freefall learning time.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

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I'd like to hear why he was dumped, on his back, at 8.5.
Roll him over and let him try again!
He lost 15 seconds of freefall learning time.

I won't question the AFF I who was there. It was a single jumpmaster dive, and the call was made to dump the guy out. I don't know what kind of shape he was in, but the instructor had a hand on him, the PC was within reach and it seemed like 'go time', so the PC 'went'.

Who knows, maybe the spot was long on top of everything else?

[ufk22 32]

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Aside from that, I'd be interested to hear from AFFI's at either Perris or Eloy what the protocol is for sending an AFF student to the tunnel before they make another jump.

So...he was on his back and spinning at 8.5?
I'd like to hear why he was dumped, on his back, at 8.5.
Roll him over and let him try again!
He lost 15 seconds of freefall learning time.

+1

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Are there people on this forum who had this problem too during there AFF course? If yes, do you have any tips to be not nervous the next time you have to jump? ...........So if you have any advice for me I would really appreciate it!

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Its not so much NOT getting nervous it's more about how you handle the 'nerves' when you get them.

One little trick I found worked for some people is to stay fully orientated during the flight to height. This gives you something to do and is good airmanship. It can also take you out of yourself and your nerves.
Its as simple as looking and seeing out the window.


Then when you get to the door you know where you are. You reduce the sudden blast of excitement but get a gradual build-up which may be more manageable .
Sure, listen to and watch your instructor but also take your time to look around in freefal and SEE what you're looking at.

Avoiding uncontrolled spins is largely staying orientated.
You got to have orientation to keep it.