Weight Limit for Mini-Risers?

[LouYoung 0]

About a month ago I showed up at the dropzone and as soon as I got out of my car I looked up and saw a cutaway main floating back to the ground.

When the jumper got back to the hanger he had a split upper lip, blood all over his face, and said he wasn't sure what hit him. All he remembers is that the canopy was spinning and there was no toggle for him to grab.

When the main was retrieved it was found that the right rear riser broke. Must have been what hit him in the face.

When Mirage was contacted about the issue, they stated that if your exit weight was over 200lbs, you shouldn't be jumping mini-risers.

Now, my latest stint in this sport is only about 8 months old, but I've never heard about a 200lbs weight limit for mini-risers.

Is this something that's always been around and not publicized? Or has it been publicized and I've not seen it or ignored it? Has anyone else ever heard this?

[darkwing 4]

Oh god, I'm going to die. I'd guess that half of the mini-risers in use exceed the 200 lb limit, certainly at my DZ. I don't recall hearing this from the manufacturer of my rig (Infinity). I don't argue that mini-risers (type 17) are less strong than traditional (type 8) risers, but I do believe they are strong enough.

In this case I'd ask a couple of questions: 1) is there any reason to suspect a manufacturing defect? 2) how old were the risers? 3) Was it a hard opening? This last item is important, since as has been said many times, I WANT my risers to fail somewhat before the opening shock would kill me.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[nightjumps 1]

The weight rating on Type 17 mini risers can be 175, 200 or >200 .

Look at the inside at the bottom ring. If it has an extra piece of shiny Type 3 reinforcing tape... then it is rated for more than 200 pounds.

Having said that, I am working off old information and have asked a couple of folks about any recent changes in weight limitations for either type 17 risers or mini-rings.

If anyone would chime in, it would be appreciated.

[diablopilot 2]

While I don't have the facts of the situation I'm going to amke a couple of assumptions.

1. The risers may not have been "reinforced" as every major manufacturers type 17 risers are these days. When type 17 risers first became vouge the hole the gromet made in them weakend them tremendously. The reinforced type have been a major improvement.

2. The risers were old. People tend to forget risers need replacing just like linesets, P/C's and D-bags. They just don't show wear as easily.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[hookitt 0]

I read into that slightly different. The right rear riser snapped. That would indicate probable damage. If the break was below the confluence wrap, then I would suspect non-reinforced risers, damage, or wear.

The rig in question is most likely a Mirage since that's the rig mentioned in the post. Mirage uses type III reinforced risers, as do all or most manufacturers nowadays. By the sounds of the post, the reinforced part held just fine.

How many jumps were on the risers?
What kind of canopy?
How much does the jumper weigh?
Were the risers from the factory?
Where exactly did the break occur?

Any chance you can get pictures? I've never seen one riser leg break.

I'd also like to hear exactly what the manufacturer said about weight limits. I've heard 200 pounds for years however I'm nearly 180 out the door. I'm pretty light with out equipment at 150 pounds so that right there indicates a huge population of skydivers weighing over 200 pounds are flying with type 17 risers.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[LouYoung 0]

I don't know the rig in question well at all. The guy jumping it borrowed it from another jumper who wasn't at the DZ that day.

From what I saw, they looked like pretty new risers. They were reinforced, and the break, I believe, happen right above the reinforcment area. This is all from memory, so take it with a grain of salt.

I don't know what size or type the main canopy was. The jumper was probably 220 to 240 out the door. It was a hard opening. He said it was the hardest he'd ever experience, and he mentioned he was slightly dazed from the shock.

I don't know if anyone took pictures and I think they've already been sent back to Mirage. Mirage agreed to replace the broken risers and another set owned by the same couple that showed some wear in the same area.

There was another jumper there that day who had the exact same risers (down to the color) on his brand new Mirage rig. He was checking his riser very intently on this day.

Lou

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

It was a hard opening. He said it was the hardest he'd ever experience, and he mentioned he was slightly dazed from the shock.

I've always felt that risers were designed to be the "weak link" in the system, incase of a drastically hard opening, to protect the jumper. I could very well be dead wrong, but that's my understanding (riggers, please correct me if needed).

On the otherhand, I hadn't heard about the 200lbs limit before and I'm well over 200lbs out the door! Although I haven't had any problems, that doesn't mean that I won't, though.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mjosparky 3]

Type 17 risers were designed as a fashion statement. The weight they save and the speed gain they give is so small it would be hard to measure. Type 17 is rated at 2500 pounds and that is as weak as anything on a rig. If you notice your reserve risers are always made of Type VII front and Type VIII rear. jmo
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[AggieDave 6]

OK, thank you for clearing that up for me! I have some questions about "failsafes" on rigs, but that would be better served in a different thread....standby for new questions in another thread.

Quote

Type 17 risers were designed as a fashion statement.

Sure, but it makes it easier to pull your slider behind your head to let your canopy spread out (that in conjuntion with loosing your chest strap) and that *does* increase the performance of your canopy. That I have noticed on a first hand basis.
Although, I seriously doubt anyone thought of that when they first made them.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[hookitt 0]

Quote

If you notice your reserve risers are always made of Type VII front and Type VIII rear

Or both type VII or both Type VIII or type XIII but who checks that any way I'm just kidding around.

Back to the riser. at 240 exit weight, with a HARD opening, it's not too surprising something broke.

LouYoung, do you happen to remember if it was actually above the Confluence wrap or was it at the confluence wrap where the harness stitch is? I'm just curious. I've made hundreds of risers so it interests me. If not, no biggie.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[sammer 0]

What about the TSO'd limits on a container/harness system. Mine says it's good for 254lbs at 150kts. Shouldn't the risers be rated for at least that load, or do they not consider them part ot the TSO'd system?

[PhreeZone 15]

The TSO is good only for the reserve and harness system The main risers are not considered part of the system and are not certified at all.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skymedic 0]

Quote

Type 17 risers were designed as a fashion statement.

personaly I have type 17's for there ease of front friser and rear riser maneuver's. I can get my little hands around them much easier than the type 8's out there....makes my life much easier in this regard.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[LouYoung 0]

Quote

LouYoung, do you happen to remember if it was actually above the Confluence wrap or was it at the confluence wrap where the harness stitch is?

When I'm out there this weekend I'll see if someone got a digital pic of the failure point. I'm not a rigger, so I won't even pretend to know what a Confluence wrap is. If I had my rig here I'd pop it open and take a picture of my riser to upload, but it's getting a reserve repack at the moment.

Lou

[jceman 1]

Quote

Quote

Type 17 risers were designed as a fashion statement.

Sure, but it makes it easier to pull your slider behind your head to let your canopy spread out (that in conjuntion with loosing your chest strap) and that *does* increase the performance of your canopy. That I have noticed on a first hand basis.

That's not the first time I've heard that statement and I still don't buy it. I have never had any problem pulling my slider down and stowing it behind my head with my Mirage and I have type XIII risers; it may have something to do with the huge grommets that Icaurus uses on their sliders, but it has never been an issue.

Neither was it an issue with my previous rig, either with my Spectre or my Triathlon; if you have noticed this "issue" maybe your equipment was mismatched in other ways than riser size.

The comment about it being a fashion statement is the only one I lend credence to -- mini risers look better on the little "day pack" rigs, big old school risers look far better on my whopping ole Mirage M7.

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[sammer 0]

I emailed Sunrise earlier today about the weight limits on their mini risers and was told that they are recomended for up to 230lbs. They also told me that was just a recomendation and that I need not worry about using them with my 250lb. exit weight.

I really can't imagine the kind of load that you would have to apply to properly manufactured/maintained risers of any type to cause a failure like this. I am inclined to think that I would break long before my mini risers would. That being said, I will probably still inspect them a little more regularly after reading this thread.

[hookitt 0]

Quote

so I won't even pretend to know what a Confluence wrap is.

On a riser, it's the piece of webbing that's wrapped around the riser.

Here's a picture stolen from the article in the fail safes thread. The confluence wrap is circled.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[billbooth 10]

A single rear riser break is very rare. Risers usually break where they go around the large harness ring. It is obvious that since the "reinforcement" in type 17 risers is below the confluence, it does nothing to prevent this kind of damage. When this riser broke, it "released" a lot of energy, thus preventing much more serious injury of the jumper. Which is a good thing. The only way I know of to prevent "killer" opening shocks, is not to jump Spectra (Microline) or Vectran. They don't stretch at all, and therefore do nothing to help absorb the energy of a really hard opening. As long as we insist on jumping non-stretch lines, incidents like this are bound to happen. (Canopies with Dacron lines can still open hard, but much less shock is actually felt by the jumper.)

If something has to break, it should be above the main riser attachment ring. That is a basic rule of parachute system design. It is possible to make risers that are so strong that they remain intact while the harness below them fails. This is really stupid, but it has been done...recently, in fact.

[skydiverek 60]

Quote

I emailed Sunrise earlier today about the weight limits on their mini risers and was told that they are recomended for up to 230lbs. They also told me that was just a recomendation and that I need not worry about using them with my 250lb. exit weight.

Is that still valid for mini risers (Type 17) manufactured by Sunrise Rigging (Wings) in year 2012?

[mjosparky 3]

Here are some interesting articles on mini risers. Remember most if not all main risers are not manufactured to any know stantard.

Sparky

http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=T17FAILURE&SortBy=DATE_D

http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=RISERANALYSIS&SortBy=DATE_D

http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=T17STUDY&SortBy=DATE_D

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skydiverek 60]

Good info in the JumpShack articles. I know I can draw the conclusions myself from these, but can anyone tell me if there is currently some said exit weight limit in the industry, for jumping with Type 17 risers (it used to be 200 lbs)? If so, what is that exit weight limit currently?

[holie 0]

Quote

Good info in the JumpShack articles. I know I can draw the conclusions myself from these, but can anyone tell me if there is currently some said exit weight limit in the industry, for jumping with Type 17 risers (it used to be 200 lbs)? If so, what is that exit weight limit currently?

... if it is there I do prove the lack of evidence each jump

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

can anyone tell me if there is currently some said exit weight limit in the industry, for jumping with Type 17 risers (it used to be 200 lbs)?

There is no industry wide limit on type 17 risers for sport parachuting.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[JohnSherman 1]

Quote

1. The risers may not have been "reinforced" as every major manufacturers type 17 risers are these days. When type 17 risers first became vouge the hole the gromet made in them weakend them tremendously. The reinforced type have been a major improvement.

Not accurate: We don't use or need the reinforcement. All the reinforcement does is reduce the mechanical advantage of the middle ring by thickening the webbing and reducing the length of the leaver. The reinforcement seen in the riser was for the cutting problem of the middle ring to the harness ring. See:http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=T17STUDY&SortBy=DATE_D

Additionally Type 17 mini-ring risers can accept a 3600 pound load if manufactured correctly. For a 200 pound person that would be 18G's. Pleanty strong enough for any skydiving. We don't limit ours.

[JohnSherman 1]

Quote

The only way I know of to prevent "killer" opening shocks, is not to jump Spectra (Microline) or Vectran. They don't stretch at all, and therefore do nothing to help absorb the energy of a really hard opening.

That is just not true. Bill, you said you can't use Spectra line on Tandems. I have been using Spectra line on tandems for 20 years and never had a line break and don't have an opening shock problem. The Firebolt opens onheading softly with 1000 pound spectra and always has.

The reason this was believed was because the smaller diameter line has a tendency to be less retained in the rubber band and if the stows are not balanced the bites pull out easily. That's line dump.

The type of line has little to do with opening shock. ALL of the other factors are far more signifficant.
The way to avoid "Killer " opening shock is to control the entire opening process. Avoid line/bag dump/strip and rubber band your slider up.

If it opens soft once it can open soft every time, just control the variables. You gotta learn them before you can control them.