Re: [pa2themd] No pull from 2000 m on 24th birthday and got killed

[raymod2 1]

I would not jump to the conclusion that an outdated CYPRES is better than no CYPRES at all. Did you consider the possibility that a malfunctioning CYPRES could *cause* a fatality by firing when it shouldn't?

[DJL 232]

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I would not jump to the conclusion that an outdated CYPRES is better than no CYPRES at all. Did you consider the possibility that a malfunctioning CYPRES could *cause* a fatality by firing when it shouldn't?

Agree, and not to mention that we seem to be getting away from the point that replacing gear that is "scary" is a better place to start than an out of date backup system.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[pa2themd 0]

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I would not jump to the conclusion that an outdated CYPRES is better than no CYPRES at all. Did you consider the possibility that a malfunctioning CYPRES could *cause* a fatality by firing when it shouldn't?

Yes, you may be correct!! I guess sometimes in our haste to help / assist others we kind of forget the reason why these have expiry dates!

thanks for the info

I still think that sending gear to those who gear is not easily obtained is a great idea. We will need a good system of people like yourself who will point our various safety issues! still think that is a point for a different forum? Maybe we should move this to the hgear and rigging forum!

Blue skies

sheri

"Most of us can read the writing on the wall; we just assume it's
addressed to someone else!" Ivern Ball

[Skybums 0]

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I would not jump to the conclusion that an outdated CYPRES is better than no CYPRES at all. Did you consider the possibility that a malfunctioning CYPRES could *cause* a fatality by firing when it shouldn't?

Well i don´t agree. These units have been manufactured to last and have been trough extensive test´s trough it´s lifetime. The only reason why Airtech will not support them any more is because.

1. Yes they are getting older, and some of them will eventually stop working. It will only be a FEW that cannot last another 4 years. But it only take a few faulty Cypres´s to get a bad reputation, and they dont want that.

2. To make more money

The units have a extensive selftest that probably would find the few units that will go bad.

No electronics stop working because someone tell´s it 12 years old (I´m educated in electronics, and have been working with electronic production for several years).

I´ve seen a lot of FXC missfires, and none of them were anywere near killing someone.

Yes a missfire could be possible dangerous 300 km. headdown , someone 20 meter above you . And the list go on and on, but aint it like that in this sport ?

I still say, i would rather jump a 12 year old Cypres anyday, than a brand new FXC or some other crap.

Bottom line, AAD´s save more lifes than they take
Allan

[LukeOliver 0]

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I would not jump to the conclusion that an outdated CYPRES is better than no CYPRES at all. Did you consider the possibility that a malfunctioning CYPRES could *cause* a fatality by firing when it shouldn't?

Well i don´t agree. These units have been manufactured to last and have been trough extensive test´s trough it´s lifetime. The only reason why Airtech will not support them any more is because.

Perhaps a good rule of thumb might be to understand the equipment you're jumping, and follow the manufacturer's recommendations. This avoids the potentially thorny issue of you being technically a test jumper.

Maybe someone could let us know whether a rigger can repack a reserve into a container that contains an out-of-date CYPRES, given that it's (imho) unserviceable?

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...and the list go[es] on and on, but aint it like that in this sport ?

Does it have to be like that, or can we keep moving forward?

L.

[Skybums 0]

[LukeOliver 0]

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But these guys are jumping gear that resembles gear from the 1970-1980´s. And we can help them moving forward, by doing this.

I agree wholeheartedly - but not to the point of donating gear which the manufacturer deems unserviceable.

L.

[billvon 2,435]

>I agree wholeheartedly - but not to the point of donating gear which
> the manufacturer deems unserviceable.

Why not let them make that decision? It might do them a service to let them use gear the manufacturer deems unserviceable, especially if it is ten times more reliable than the gear they have now. I mean, if you don't want to donate gear don't, but if you do remember that there are different standards throughout the world as to what is serviceable and what isn't.

[Skybums 0]

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>I agree wholeheartedly - but not to the point of donating gear which
> the manufacturer deems unserviceable.

Why not let them make that decision? It might do them a service to let them use gear the manufacturer deems unserviceable, especially if it is ten times more reliable than the gear they have now. I mean, if you don't want to donate gear don't, but if you do remember that there are different standards throughout the world as to what is serviceable and what isn't.

My words exactly
Allan R.

[raymod2 1]

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>I agree wholeheartedly - but not to the point of donating gear which
> the manufacturer deems unserviceable.

Why not let them make that decision?

If you go down that road then why not apply the same principle here in the United States?

[piisfish 135]

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>I agree wholeheartedly - but not to the point of donating gear which
> the manufacturer deems unserviceable.

Why not let them make that decision?

If you go down that road then why not apply the same principle here in the United States?

not all the countries have the same regulations...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 2,435]

>If you go down that road then why not apply the same principle here
> in the United States?

A few riggers do just that, but most are unwilling to. We have laws here that do not neccessarily apply to the rest of the world, so different considerations apply when you are talking about the US vs the rest of the world.

Some examples for you to think about: Let's say you are jumping in a foreign country that requires a repack once every 360 days. Your container manufacturer says to repack it every 120 days. Will you continue to repack it every 120 days?

Or you are in a country that requires reserve parachutes to be discarded after they are 8 years old for safety reasons. You come across a never-jumped PD143 that's 9 years old, and you have the option to bring it back to the US with you. Will you discard it, or will you take it back with you?

[Tonto 1]

I'm with you 100%.

I've seen gear (and aircraft) in Africa that I would never use, but my gear (including the cypres 3 years past it's 8 year check) is more serviceable than most.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[slotperfect 7]

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Maybe someone could let us know whether a rigger can repack a reserve into a container that contains an out-of-date CYPRES, given that it's (imho) unserviceable?

In the US, a Rigger cannot legally pack a reserve with a CYPRES that:

1) is out of date or goes out of date (past 12 years, 3 months) before it is next due for a repack

2) will require service (4 years, 3 months or 8 years, 3 months) before it is next due for a repack

3) has batteries that are expired or will expire before it is next due for a repack

4) is deemed unairworthy for any other reason (e.g. the units that were involved in the train wreck)

FAR Part 105 says:

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§ 105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems.

(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device.

Arrive Safely

John

[Tonto 1]

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Maybe someone could let us know whether a rigger can repack a reserve into a container that contains an out-of-date CYPRES

They are here unless the gear is used for Tandems or students. Some may require the jumper to sign an acnowlegement that the cypres is out of date.

The logic is quite simple.

The AAD is an extra. It may work, or not, even when new. It should NEVER be relied on. As for accidental firing - I've not heard of one. I have seen several premeture deployments from other causes though.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[airtwardo 6]

Straying a bit from the AAD line...

Does anyone have any ideas as to how we might
donate gear to an area in need?

Thoughts on the type on gear that may be useful?
* in addition to ADD's

I don't know...
Is there a need for 'used' helmets, jumpsuits, goggles, boots,
rigging supplies...
serviceable containers and canopies?

Who might the equipment go to for 'proper'
distribution...
How would it get there...

Any thoughts?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Tonto 1]

I have no idea...

Reminds me a little of the "Eat your dinner! There are kids starving in Africa!" line given to me by my parents.

It's a noble thought, but organisations are unlikely to want to help, and where should the stuff come from or go to?

I know in the past, when I've got new gear, I've always "gifted" some kid at the DZ with stuff worse than mine with my old gear. Since they saw it work fine on the last load - they usually take it. I exchanged my last harness and main for a cypres battery with my rigger. He'll fix it up, make a few $ and hand some OK airworthy gear to someone else - while it would have just stayed in the cupboard like so much of my other gear did for a decade or more.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[airtwardo 6]

Kind of why I'm askin'

I have 1/2 a 10X30 storage place full of 'old'
gear and rigging junk...material, gromets, couple dozen
'new' pilot chutes, 50-60 pre made bridles etc.

You know...stuff that I'll never use, but might be
a treasure to someone else.

But you're right...
would be tough to get it to the right hands as intended.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ivanmi 0]

Well, used rig in US is usually considered as close to prefect here in Serbia. So many of our skydivers were trying to do something about it. A friend of mine told me "I was on the Internet day and night, begging, crying, embarassing my country, just in order to get something for free. But, after months of negotitations and hundreds of e-mails I realized that the price of transport and customs is higher than the worth of the donation." The reason is simple: if you do it ad hoc, a piece per time, this math is true.

But if we manage to organize things in clever way (and it should be us to do it, not you guys, we are the ones that will use the gear after all), gather it all in one place and then ship it to Serbia, it might work.

We are working heavily to make this happen and will inform all of you as soon as we find a good solution. Meanwhile, see if some other people you know, in your DZ or some friend of yours have something to donate.

And yes, even goggles or flysuit or helmet is welcomed too, not only Cypress or some expensive stuff.

What we do in our lives, echoes in eternity.