KIDS and BASE

[klapaucius 0]

Quote

Quote

because YOUR judgement is affected, no matter what you say, by the fact that he is your son.

Would you care to elaborate? Just curious as to how you feel his judgement is affected. Are you saying affected similar to "Boyfriends teaching BASE" as Tom has talked about or something different?

Coco

Yes, and no. There is whole subconscious (of both dad and son) that can make a big mess out of a situation. Emotions skew judgement.

"Dad, I am ready"...vs. "Mentor, I am ready"
"Son, you can do it now"... vs. "Student, you can do it now"
"Son, I am proud of you"... "Student, well done"
"Dad, did I do it right?"..."Mentor, what was the problem at ..."

[dmcoco84 4]

That didn't really answer my question... How does the father/son relationship skew his judgment negatively? Those vs. don't really say how....

In my opinion I would feel that due to the close family relationship, BASE841 would be
more so careful in the types of jumps and weather conditions he allows his son to do out of fear for
his safety than in the situation Tom talks about with those who are romantically involved or a Male
Mentor hoping to achieve a romantic relationship from mentoring a female.

Quote

Because of the issues surrounding women in a heavily male pastime, you need to be extra-careful in screening potential BASE mentors. Be certain that you want to BASE jump for you, not him, and that his foremost concern is your safety, not getting into your pants. From the beginning, you must be strong enough, and smart enough to back out of a potentially dangerous situation. Don’t count on the guys at the DZ to be looking out for you-they may be too busy checking you out.

Quote

Boyfriends (or guys who are hoping to work up into that position) have a lot of trouble saying “no” to the woman they are involved with (or want to be involved with). When she asks if she can jump a site with him, he is virtually powerless to deny her. He likes to spend time with her, he is flattered that she is interested in his hobby, he wants to please her-of course he will take her. She has to be the one to know this is a bad idea. And as a beginner, she has no way of knowing that. There have been several cases of unqualified women receiving BASE instruction. They did’t know better, and the guys who did know better were more concerned with finding a way to spend time with them than helping them learn safely.

Quote

Mixing BASE and romance, flirtation, or sexual tension will only impair judgment, and often leads to disaster.

Unlike a Male mentor wanting to please the female he is attracted too, a father does not have to please his son. Parents say no to their children for most of the shit they want and want to do anyway. I don't think it would be any different when it comes to BASE. I would think a father would be more so likely to say no to jumping as a whole or tell a son that conditions are bad and he can't jump or is not ready and needs more canopy experience.

The only issue I see here, In My Opinion, is not the father/son relationship, or the son's age but that the son does not have enough canopy experience to be BASE jumping. Yes, 7 is better than none, but 100 is better than 7, and 200 is better than 100. Jumping off a bridge is not hard. I could teach one of my none jumper buddies that in ten minutes. The main concern is the abilities of the jumper after the canopy is open. Dad can't do shit for his son at that point. And neither can a Tom A. type mentor. I definitely think doing so from TF is a smarter idea than an A. As least with a 180 the kid can't have an object strike. Any other object to do this off of would not be the wisest decision. In order to be confident under canopy and under pressure one must spend a great deal of time under canopy learning and feeling first hand. Being under canopy for a minute or two after each jump after 7 skydives does not give you the knowledge and muscle memory ability to be able to deal with types of things you will experience in the BASE environment (Quickness in heading control, being able to read landing pattern from different altitudes, accuracy, and so on). It is never a wise decision to enter BASE with a low amount of skydives but it can be done.

Look at it from another view. Regardless of age, sex, maturity...A driver behind the wheel of a car faced with seconds to react to an accident. Who is going to react faster and more appropriate. A driver who has spent a few hours behind the wheel or someone with years of experience. Common sense can answer this question. BUT like the situation with Clair, some people can have a natural ability to react quickly and effectively in avoiding the accident regardless of how inexperience they are.

Lets also ponder this? What about a son teaching his father to BASE??? Take the "young kid" element out and analyze the father/son teaching element now. Hmmmmmmm......

Coco

Edit: Spelling

[TVPB 0]

Quote

a father does not have to please his son.

In the modern world, this statement can be so far from the truth that it hurts. Why? Mum and Dad are divorced. Dad only has son on weekends and wants to impress the hell out of him and give him a good time. Dad may feel some degree of guilt or inadequacy in his involvement and contribution to the boys upbringing. BASE jumping is a great shortcut. I don't think that this is the case in the scenario in this thread. But it can happen.

What if dad was a career jockey and gave his son nothing for 16 years. Now he feels like he is about to lose him permanently to the grown up world. . . . Do you know the song "cats in the cradle and the silver spoon.."? This is a prime example of what the lyrics of the song say.

Quote

Jumping off a bridge is not hard.

Using that logic, jumping off anything is not hard. Its the bit after exit that may requires some attention. Do NOT forget that bridges have claimed their fair share of our brethren.

Quote

The main concern is the abilities of the jumper after the canopy is open.

The main concern is the following:
- is the person suitable
- have they been trained appropriately
- can they do a stable exit
- are they able to initiate deployment in a safe way
- it is only then that the canopy skill issue comes into the equation. Now, if a person was smart, they would knock this baby on the head as an issue before they got to the bridge. That is why parachuting from an aircraft at altitude is extremely beneficial for any prospective BASE jumper. No matter what any 16 yo girl would say (sorry, had to throw that in. I am a bitch!).

i.e. the whole package is a concern. If you treat BASE accodingly, you get to live longer, do funkier tricks, have more fun, travel around and do more sites, meet awesome people (and a few loonies), etc.

Are 16 yo capable. Their will always be exceptions to the affirmative. Exceptions rather than the rule!!!!!

Quote

Lets also ponder this? What about a son teaching his father to BASE??? Take the "young kid" element out and analyze the father/son teaching element now. Hmmmmmmm......

The little shit just wants his inheritance quicker!!!!!!!

One of my experiences with kids and dads and BASE - I remember seeing Zoo (JM) mentoring his son following a paragliding mishap. He told me that his son was not ready for BASE and that if he caught him anywhere near an object with a rig on, he would kick his arse. He had lots of time on paragliders but dad felt his maturity was not there. This is a dad who clocked up over 1000 BASE jumps when everyone else thought 200 was a big deal.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[GreenMachine 0]

Good Morning Gang,

This discussion has made for some interesting reading......here is my input:

1. Acceptance of one's own mortality is not necessarily connected to participation in risky behavior. There are people who meditate, are genuinely religious, and/or have had extreme life experiences that are truly comfortable with their own death. However, simply being willing to die does NOT make one a skillful parachutist.

2. Teaching is not always easy and having an emotional connection with the student can sometimes makes things more difficult.

3. Assume for a moment that in the future I would be qualified to teach BASE, I would never teach my Dad to BASE jump because: he has only 155 skydives, lacks the skills, and most importantly, I love him and do not want to contribute to his death.

4. Why do some jumpers want to skip skydiving?!? It is fun, much more safe than BASE, and a great environment to learn about canopy flight. Plus it allows you to learn and experience how your mind & body communicate while jacked up on adrenaline.

5. If you are not smarter and more mature at 30 than you were at 16 then you have ceased to learn and grow.

6. What can be 'Correct' for one is usually 'Wrong' for most.

Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

[crwper 7]

Quote

Acceptance of one's own mortality is not necessarily connected to participation in risky behavior. There are people who meditate, are genuinely religious, and/or have had extreme life experiences that are truly comfortable with their own death. However, simply being willing to die does NOT make one a skillful parachutist.

First, I don't quite understand the "willing to die" thing. Isn't that a bit like being willing to fall when you step off an object?

Second, I don't think we can ever be comfortable with our own death. We can be comfortable with the idea of our own death. But it's been my (limited) experience that the idea and the thing itself are two completely different things.

To accept mortality (of ourselves and of those around us), I think we need to realize how much it's going to suck, and that we have no way of mitigating that, and then we need to make choices with that information in hand. Pretending that the loss of someone close to us could be a positive experience is denial, not acceptance.

With that said, I think we learn to accept mortality by experiencing it. No matter how smart we are, or how philosophical, there is no substitute for real-world experience here. Although there are (unfortunately) cases of 16-year-olds with a great deal of real-world experience in these matters, as a general rule this experience comes with time on the planet.

The value of this experience with mortality is that it gives us a slightly clearer picture of what we're getting into. I'm not saying that youth should exclude someone from learning to BASE jump, but I certainly think it should raise some red flags.

Michael

[GreenMachine 0]

Blue Skies Michael,

I appreciate your reply and respect that you have much more BASE experience than me. However, I believe my opinions are still valid because they are based on my own life & death experiences and we are not discussing technical BASE knowledge.

Let me say right up front that my earlier post was NOT supportive of young people BASE jumping. I think 16 is too young!! Hell I think 200 skydives is too few. The more skydiving experience and the later in life the better, if ever.

The "willing to die" thing refers to what I learned during the 6+ months of BASE research prior to my FJC, which was that a likely outcome of enough BASE jumping is death. Hence the instructor of my FJC requires his/her students to have their affairs in order (will, letter to family, advanced directives, etc.). This is meant to drive home the risks one is accepting.

As for being comfortable with one's own death....hey man, everyone is different. I do not want to die today, but part of me will be relieved when the day does come. Philosophically this may come from reading and meditating. 'The Way of the Samurai' stresses a warrior should envision his head being cut off and his body being impaled with blades when he is sitting in peace so he will not fear death.

Experientially this may come from having a near death experience, attending funerals of friends, watching people die skydiving, watching a women die BASE jumping, and watching my beloved grandmothers die slowly over time. Or perhaps it is because I am not right in the head

Quote

I think we need to realize how much it's going to suck, and that we have no way of mitigating that, and then we need to make choices with that information in hand

I agree with you whole heartedly!! There is no mitigating death, so we must accept it. The choice I make with that information is to say and show my wife, my parents, and my friends on a regular basis that I love them and appreciate them in my life. There is an old quote that I really like:

"Some live life as though they will never die...
....and die as though they have never lived"

I do not believe this applies to people like us who jump, fly, and live life to fullest....but I think it does apply to the people who constantly put off their dreams till next year only to wake up realizing that they let fear prevent them.

Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

[klapaucius 0]

Quote

That didn't really answer my question... How does the father/son relationship skew his judgment negatively? Those vs. don't really say how....

It does skew judgement, sometimes it may be good, sometimes not. In any case it is not impartial anymore.

Doctors do not treat own family members.
Lawyers do not represent their own family members

[hollyhjb 0]

hell, why wait until they are 16?

"I reject your reality and substitute my own" ~Adam Savage

[tfelber 0]

Quote

Acceptance of one's own mortality...

You've got some very good points Michael that generally people don't comprehend.

It's not about accepting your mortality. I believe everyone knows than can and will die. I think people really need to understand THEY CAN DIE ON THIS JUMP! It can and will happen.

People tend to rationalize away this very permanent outcome far too often. You hear yourselves and other saying things like:

"Yeah, but that person shouldn't have been doing that jump, in that weather, with that gear, from that object..."

"Well he was really pushing the edge."

"But I don't do jumps like that."

"He didn't consider the consequences of an offheading."

and on and on...

It's human nature. It's how we continue through life when hit by one catastrophic event after another. But in BASE it is not safe to rationalize in this manner.

When I think about my son BASE jumping, he's only five but I still think about it, I consider all the following:

I can't wait for him to have the experience.

I don't really want him to try it.

I can't imagine if he got hurt or killed.

I don't want to teach him.

I'm the only one I would want teaching him.

I don't want to teach anyone.

I don't even encourage people to BASE jump.

I think people should be discouraged from BASE jumping.

I sure want to be there when he does it.

and on and on...

I don't criticize Dave for teaching he son. I think he did a very good job of minimizing the risk and informing his son of the possible consequences. I don't believe Dave will let his son go jumping without him present, but kids are people too and they will do what they do. When you have responsibility for that person there is a whole other set of things to consider.

If you can't deal with the reality of the injury/death present in this sport than don't do it!

If you think "That won't happen to me/them" then it's definitely time to reassess the situation. It only takes once!

Have fun, live fulfilled, but never lose sight of the possible consequences.

[wwarped 0]

Quote

hell, why wait until they are 16?

those pictures simply show packers in training!

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[Butters 0]

I believe that to live a meaningful life I must take risks. Taking risks is done in two parts, risk assesement and risk management. Once I asses the risks and determine a plan to manage them I must take action. I do not think about mortality, I think I have assesed the risks and created a plan to manage them and then I give up control (not saying you stop reacting but you have given way to possible negative reactions that you will have to deal with).

The problem in this thread is a control problem. People do not want to give up control over themselves or the ones they love. This applies to many areas of life besides BASE and must be dealt with on a person by person or relationship by relationship level.

I wish my parents were at least interested in my activites (or at the least accepting). I think a father will take the extra effort to asses the risks and create as safe as possible a plan to manage those risks.

PS: I do want to do or at least try BASE. I assesed the risk and created a plan to manage it. My plan was to do a tandem skydive (done), complete AFF (done), complete my UPSA A license (almost done), and later gain more expierience (long way from done). This is not the plan for everyone, it is the plan for me.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Pendragon 1]

The concern I would have is that experienced jumpers forget all too easily what it was like to be a student. Indeed, fear is what holds most of us back to start, but familiarity sets in after a while and you forget, unless you have that teaching knowledge. BASE isn't that difficult in terms of sequence of events and what needs to be done. Carrying that through under extreme stress is a different matter.

I would especially expect, as a parent, it would be all too easy to lose objectivity in training one's son/daughter and to either overestimate their abilities, or fail to hold them back when appropriate.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13