Slider down with WLO, LRM or no LRM ?

[maretus 0]

I'm breaking this off from the slider up tailgate thread since this is a bit different topic but still very interesting indeed to discuss. Jaap Suter wrote :

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Do you use them (WLO toggles) on your slider down jumps too? Could they replace the LRM?

I've been thinking about that pretty much too. I have 74 slider down jumps (out of my total 160) of which last 10 or so I've done with Morpheus WLO toggles and without the line release mod. My reasoning behind doing so is :
1) less rigging to do, less chances of rigging error
2) tailgate pretty effectively reduces the chance of a line over, I've never seen slider down (with tailgate) line over but surely it has happened. Can anybody share their experiences about this issue ?
3) in case of a line over I can still try to clear it with WLO, given that the exit was high enough that allows me enough time to work with it. I know that using LRM probably is faster way to release the steering lines and it could save me a fraction of a second when the time is limited and that is probably the only downside I can think of when jumping this setup.
4) always having the steering lines in same setup (through the slider grommets and guide rings) allows me to always have the same feeling for the canopy, regardless of the jump. Whereas when using the LRM I've noticed that the steering "touch" somewhat changes since steering lines go straight to the tail of the canopy.
5) (edited to add) If I have a break fire during opening and I'm jumping without LRM, I dont lose a toggle since it stays on the guide ring and I can just grab the toggle and release the other break. As in with LRM if a break blows during opening then the toggle is lost and you have to land with rears and/or one rear and one toggle.

Now I know that 10 jumps with this setup is far from sufficient amount of drawing any conclusions but I'd still like to discuss this with you guys. Can anyone share their experiences about this issue ? Anyone who has experienced slider down line over with tailgate ? Anyone who has actually used LRM and/or WLO to clear actual line over ? What was the difference using those setups ? What are your general thoughts about WLO in slider down enviroment ?

http://www.ufufreefly.com

[LukeH 0]

Hi Maretus,

I've heard that slider down opening can bend the pins in HPBG toggles, but never heard of an actuial case of it happening.

Also I've had a line over slider up, the canopy was turning quite fast. Lucky enough I was far away from the wall and a little high. I'm not sure I would have had time to release the toggle on most of the slider down stuff I've jumped.

Have you thought of doing a release drill off one of your friendlier slider down objects?

-Luke

[maretus 0]

How have you been Luke ? Long time no see bro. :)

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I've heard that slider down opening can bend the pins in HPBG toggles, but never heard of an actuial case of it happening.

I've heard that too and so far with 10 or so deployments the pins are fine. I always check them when I stow my brakes.

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Have you thought of doing a release drill off one of your friendlier slider down objects?

Too bad that I don't have that many "friendlier slider down objects". :) But I've been thinking about doing it on a skydive since I have a rig that fits my Troll 265.

http://www.ufufreefly.com

[TomAiello 25]

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I've heard that slider down opening can bend the pins in HPBG toggles, but never heard of an actuial case of it happening.

I've seen bent pins on WLO's. I'm not sure if the Morpheus and Apex versions use the same pins or not.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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...I've never seen slider down (with tailgate) line over but surely it has happened. Can anybody share their experiences about this issue ?

I know of 3 cases in which a slider down, tailgated canopy has experienced a line over. I am only familiar with the packing of one of these canopies, but in that case, the packing was very good.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[bps 0]

Something to consider: while releasing a brake line on a WLO toggle is not too terribly hard, it is more difficult than simply releasing a toggle -- especially when under duress.

Seth Blake (RIP) had a no tail-gate slider-down line-over off the frozen pizza cliff during one of the IPBC comps back in 98 or 99. The jump can be found Ill Vision's first video, "Rage".

390ft cliff -- Standard delay -- Line-over -- Violent spin after opening.

Seth was "on it". He released the toggle, the line-over cleared, and he planed out right into the sharp talus. As it was, he was lucky enough to walk away with lots of stitches and bruises. If he had been 40 to 50ft lower, he likely would have been carried away in a body bag. Some line-overs spin violently, some behave rather docile. Which one are you going to have? And are you going to have enough time for the release? Sometimes, milliseconds can make the difference...

Another consideration is the timing of when you actually release the line. If you have the altitude to spare, and you are using the line release mod, you can release the toggle and then pump it down in an effort to clear the line-over. If that doesn't work, you might be able to control your heading before throwing the toggle away, and point yourself away from the object. With a WLO release, you have far less control.

WLO toggles are outstanding for slider-up jumps. But for me, the traditional line release mod provides more options and less complexity, so it is still my #1 choice for slider-down jumps.

Bryan

[Faber 0]

only using big grab toogles the way Marty does them(thanks Marty)
I however most of the time jump slider off,if i get a line over i just toss the toogle,hey i even toss them if i dont have a lineover.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[460 0]

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Another consideration is the timing of when you actually release the line. If you have the altitude to spare, and you are using the line release mod, you can release the toggle and then pump it down in an effort to clear the line-over. If that doesn't work, you might be able to control your heading before throwing the toggle away, and point yourself away from the object. With a WLO release, you have far less control.

WLO toggles are outstanding for slider-up jumps. But for me, the traditional line release mod provides more options and less complexity, so it is still my #1 choice for slider-down jumps.

Bryan

Note to the casual reader... Brian's post is quite correct. Try to get heading control if possible while dealing with the malfunction. Fiddling with a little ring on a toggle while so low is a dangerous endeavor. If the jumper fixes the spin but happens to be pointed toward the object at that moment, the vertical speed will translate into horizontal speed and an object strike could be imminent and quite hazardous, if not deadly.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[maretus 0]

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...I've never seen slider down (with tailgate) line over but surely it has happened. Can anybody share their experiences about this issue ?

I know of 3 cases in which a slider down, tailgated canopy has experienced a line over.

Can you share anything else about these cases ? What were the objects, altitudes, delays etc ? How did the canopies behave ? What were setups being used (I'd guess for LRM) and what was the outcome ? Did the jumpers in question clear those line overs with tossing the toggle and successfully landing with rears or ?

http://www.ufufreefly.com

[TomAiello 25]

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Can you share anything else about these cases ? What were the objects, altitudes, delays etc ? How did the canopies behave ? What were setups being used (I'd guess for LRM) and what was the outcome ? Did the jumpers in question clear those line overs with tossing the toggle and successfully landing with rears or ?

One was a 370' cliff, with a 2 second delay. That jumper tossed a toggle (LRM) and landed safely on reares.

The second was a 2.5 second delay from the bridge here (486'). That lineover was cleared by the jumper pumping the toggle repeatedly, and the jumper landed normally.

The third was also here, and was around a 2 second delay, and that jumper "froze up" (his words) and spun into the water with both toggles still in hand (the canopy was LRM equipped, but the jumper simply did not throw either toggle).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[dbrutherford 0]

Faber, I am not a BASE Jumper and not really even a skydiver just a poor AFF student who will not be able to complete my training until I am out of college.....

But.. I remember a nice little video of yours where you lost your toggles and ended up with a broken leg.

Didn't that happen because you lost your toggles on opening?

Any new videos in the works?

Thanks, DBR

[Faber 0]

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I remember a nice little video of yours where you lost your toggles and ended up with a broken leg.

yeah but that was not as of my lost toogle,the only reasson i broke my leg is that i didnt mannege to rearriser land my canopy,a thing ALL BASEjumpers should be abel to..

And yes i have now learned how to land rearrisers.

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Any new videos in the works?

i has desided to be abit more shy than back thenso im sorry to say that only thouse at skydivingmovies.com is publick,besides im not doing any flippy things in freefall so compared to nowdays standards they will be borring

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Mac 1]

what heights are you jumping from / opening at on your Slider down jumps?

I for one know that I can deal with a LRM set up on opening and not a WLO set up for the heights that slider down normally puts me. I recently "dropped" a toggle and to be honest it was not problem, I am happy to fly and land on having made that cock up from such a lowish height. Having a line over and having to deal with a WLO set up from low altitude, well you can have fun dealing with it whislt I LRMod myself to a flying canopy....