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RkyMtnHigh

Why so few females?

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Welcome, and good luck!

The women I know in BASE are those that have chosen to NOT have children. I can't think of a single BASE jumping female that has kids.

That being said, my question is where are you? There are women in the sport that are ready, willing and able to mentor you....you just need to be geographically close to make it feasible.

Have fun, be safe, and soft landings...
K

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I can't think of a single BASE jumping female that has kids.



Granted she may not be jumping a who;e lot, but Jill Salo is a BASE jumping mother.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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The women I know in BASE are those that have chosen to NOT have children. I can't think of a single BASE jumping female that has kids.



I can think about one, she has two kids and her husband is BASE jumping as well.

Jul.
JFK #1013
PM Me
No Adrenalin.... No Fun!
"Minds are like parachutes the

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If more men are attracted to the sport because it interests them, then base is fundamentally "male", however you would define that. The elements of Base appeals more to the male mind.

Higher testosterone levels?



Fetal testosterone levels. [Edited to add link.]

The more exposure to testosterone during a critical period of fetal development, the more "male-minded" the fetus becomes.

Simon Baron-Cohen, the director of the Autism Research Centre in Cambridge has done a fair amount of research on the subject. He ultimately links "the extreme male brain" to autism.

Two pop science books that examine the differences between male and female brains, including a short quiz to determine the male or femaleness of ones own brain, were written by Allan and Barbara Pease: Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps and Why Men Can Only Do One Thing at Time...And Women Never Stop Talking.

Or you can just take the AQ Test. [Edited to add: Be prepared to hand score it. It's old, and the scoring function appears not to work.]

Your turn, Nitro. ;)

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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It's about expendible income and exposure. If more women had more money (still it's 70 cents to the man's dollar for the same job) and more exposure the the sport, there would be more base jumping women..



This statement is false. It is a part of mid 70's feminist rhetoric which stilted numbers to falsely represent income/job statistics. Compiled by Feminist think tanks, the misrepresentation is this: On the surface the statistics appear to say that "men and women working the same job are not paid the same" but what the research actually says is "that men and women working COMPARABLE jobs are not paid the same. The emotive power of the first version overwhelmed any correction after the fact, because this was a political tactic when this issue was very hot. Im old enough to remember this time, and did some research on it in college for graduate school.

Feminists semi arbitrarily determined that two different jobs were the "same" and should be paid the same, so they would compare female teacher with male cook, male business manager with daycare supervisor and the like odd comparisons, and then scream about the inequity. There was a Stanford-developed social strategy loosely grouped under the title "the lie that tells the truth". When applied to politics this kind of media political manipulation was the result. At the time, it worked because women were fed-up with problems and men hadnt adapted to the social change yet. Political concerns developed just the right data to really accelerate reform. But it is still not true; the real problem was that women were encountering great resistance to becoming more than just wives and mothers and knew it was unfair, and needed radical sociopolitical strategies to force legal measures and social reform.

In a nut shell, it has been illegal to pay men and women different pay in the same exact job for some time, so women today working as engineers with the same job and seniority and rank must be and are paid the same as the male workers at that same company.

Admittedly, my original post is un-organized and overly inclusive, and does show a social bias; but science has proven physical differences in the nervous system and behaviors of men and women. Additionally, the question of why more men are in base is unanswerable in this forum, but this, I think, is NOT due to any kind of discrimination.


BASE 758


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xsig x

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It's about expendible income and exposure. If more women had more money (still it's 70 cents to the man's dollar for the same job) and more exposure the the sport, there would be more base jumping women..



This statement is false. It is a part of mid 70's feminist rhetoric which stilted numbers to falsely represent income/job statistics.



In a nut shell, it has been illegal to pay men and women different pay in the same exact job for some time, so women today working as engineers with the same job and seniority and rank must be and are paid the same as the male workers at that same company.



I've snipped most of your reply, because it is largely on-target as to the present day.

Back then, however, things were different. Rabid feminism gets my goat, and some of those who represented the "feminist movement" clearly were (and remain) man-haters, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't just "comparable jobs." For example, there were a lot of male teachers in those years (it was good for a draft deferment, and there were many men who availed themselves of the opportunity to avoid Vietnam), and the pay scales were different. In addition, there were jobs that women do routinely now that they weren't even considered for then.

A lot has changed. I have the misfortune of being old enough to remember it rather than just reading about it.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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The women I know in BASE are those that have chosen to NOT have children. I can't think of a single BASE jumping female that has kids.



It seems like a true but there are some exceptions. I know at least one very active BASEjumping girl -- the real basejumper) -- who has a son.

About the solos -- I've done a dozen of solos in the beginning, but only from the regular objects. Then was a pediod then solos seemed too scary for me. Now it's not interesting for me any more. But I'm sure that solos will be back in my life sometime.
Between two evils always pick theone never tried

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Actually, Rhonda, at the time of my research the data was very specific. Jobs were comparable, not exact. While feminists have had the time to hunt down the harder to find example to exactly illustrate their point, at the time they preferred to shotgun the issue with more massive amounts of data through the very false comparison of "similar" jobs, using the "advanced" tactic of "the lie that tells the truth" a sociopolitical pseudo scientific tool which is an extension of "the end justifies the means". A wrongful philosophy in my opinion.

I have no doubt that the rabid feminists have since been forced to clean up their statistics, and find more factual examples, but I imagine there are still statistical problems with the data. For example, it is fallacious to compare male teachers in a private school in New York City with female public teachers in Littleton, Iowa. Different market, different school district, different demand, different state...but I have no doubt that if challenged on comparable jobs, feminist leaders would minimally modify their comparisons to continue to produce figures favorable to their cause. They would be willing to overlook the subtleties of truth in pursuit of their ends: quick and dirty data overly inflated and exaggerated to draw emotive and viceral responses. Thats not to say that inequities dont and didnt exist, it is to say that the data that I personally saw and researched, specifically advanced by feminist proponents at the time of my work, was falsely comparing "similar" jobs, female nurse with male construction worker. I may not, perhaps, be as young as you suppose...

Base is equally accessible to the sexes in the present day, which is what is being discussed. Money doesnt keep them out. Discrimination doesnt keep them out. I dont keep them out. They choose not to base in greater numbers than men because they either have less interest in it, or have more to lose than men. Either way, the issue is choice, women need only take responsibility for their own lives and their own happiness without blaming others for choices which are now theirs.

Base 758

****************************************************



xsig x

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Dennis, are we talking about the 70s or are we talking about now? It seems a little blurry to me.

As to teachers, I was talking about the payscales where I went to school in the 60s and 70s (I graduated highschool in '76). The men made more than the women, and most of the women had been teaching longer.

If you're talking about now, I don't think there is much issue of pay inequity except in certain backwater towns, such as the one in which I currently live.

So if you're talking about the 70s, and earlier, it was a lot different. But no one was basejumping then, so the conditions then don't apply to 2005. If you're talking about the thirty years in between then and now, it's just like anything else--you have to do it by cases. Payscales equalized in some areas more quickly than others. And you'll never be able to make a case using small businesses, because unlike corporate environments, the payscales reflect the value of individual employees to the owner. I've worked in lawfirms where I was paid more than the associates; I also worked in a lawfirm where I was paid about the same as the "paralegal" with the 9th grade education (barely) who was hired straight from a strip club because my boss had lost his mind.

Anyway, you seem pretty passionate there at the end, but I'm almost certain it wasn't a woman who pointed to the possibility of economic inequity as a reason for women not basejumping. And my qualified disagreement with the facts you cite has nothing to do with "women need[ing] only take responsibility for their own lives and their own happiness without blaming others for choices which are now theirs." That was a real leap, Dennis, and a little insulting, particularly since the poster who made the assertion was male not female.

Anyway, I don't agree that disposable income is the issue, because there are a lot of women skydiving and engaging in other risky and expensive ventures--one such being the bearing of children. Ever looked a maternal mortality rates? They'll give basejumping a run for the money riskwise. Nor do I agree it has so much to do with children, because I know plenty of women with children who skydive--I've even known some to continue jumping in the early months of pregnancy--and I made my only basejumps when my daughter was not quite a teenager.

The reason lies elsewhere. Perhaps if we consider it without reference to old resentments, we'll figure it out.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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I'll probably get hell for saying this, but I discussed this with a base jumping friend of mine a while back. One thing mentioned that I heavily agreed upon was the role the canopy plays when base jumping. From what I've seen and *IMO*, the male gender has a better understanding of landing and flying them from an earlier start even in skydiving. I know a lot of female jumpers who have had problems standing up a single landing until over 200 jumps (Yes, I know that is not the case for all). Also, I see more girls/women using the canopy as just a means to get to the ground instead of really attempting to learn its characterists moreso than men. Yes, I know this is in relation to skydiving, but I personally see it linked for this reason. I personally am not base jumping anymore, for the time being, due largely to the fact that I feel I could use a lot more canopy knowledge and training.



Now, my disclaimer: In no way am I intending to make any sort of anti/female - sexist statement with this post, and I'm sorry if any of you take it that way.

:)
*Edited to add: This post is in response to reading the entire thread and is not directed towards any person in general.

*Edited again to add: I have even had several guys tell me they don't/won't get into base because of the canopy factor. It pushes some men away as well.

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I'll probably get hell for saying this...

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That was brave. :)

It was also correct. It's part of our biology. Men have better spatial awareness, among other inborn traits, that make them better equipped to fly their canopies.

It doesn't mean that women can't develop skills that come more easily to men anymore than men can't develop skills that come more easily to women. It just means that in the areas where our brains are different, we have to work harder to hone the requisite skills.

There's nothing sexist about stating a fact, Amanda. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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"Dennis, are we talking about the 70s or are we talking about now? It seems a little blurry to me. "

Um. We're talking about basejumping, dear. Focus!

"As to teachers, I was talking about the payscales where I went to school in the 60s and 70s (I graduated highschool in '76). The men made more than the women, and most of the women had been teaching longer. "

Then this situation was heinously inequitous, wrong, and likely illegal unless gender discrimination laws were not in effect yet. I believe the logic
behind such inequities were that men had families to support and women were working "for fun". At the time, Im sure this was logical to the old culture which had existed for years...but its time had ended.

Sadly, you are also revisionist in your perspective of history. You side-step the "comparable work" issue completely as though I made it up, likely because this reality (as a political methodology) is an embarrassment to the women's movement in its outrageous scholarship and aggressive stance. Yes there were real pay inequities, but yes the comparable work tactic was used, and was in play. You give personal examples. Not accredited national studies. Nationally, feminists may have been overeager in pressing their agenda NOW (pun intended) rather than waiting for more respectable studies. The study that I mentioned was an "official" "proof". The lie that tells the truth. I saw it with my own eyes. You offer no clever clicky with an alternative respectable study to demonstrate that no such "comparable work" study existed or was in play during my time or in my experience. Or that your version of respectability existed instead.

Also you err, by arguing against positions that I neither support nor defend, and havent offered here; why would you expect me to defend myself from or make comment upon some of your paragraphs? If you need a lectern on the subject, dont use me. I assume youre testing my ability to pick out a variety of fallacies and illogicities. Boring...

"I also worked in a lawfirm where I was paid about the same as the "paralegal" with the 9th grade education (barely) who was hired straight from a strip club because my boss had lost his mind. "

Ok. This is just funny. :D What part of "men" havent you learned in 48 years? We discussed this. Men want sex. Women want money. Its too bad, but woulda shoulda coulda is no match for the way things really are. Your boss' wife divorced him and took his money, his house...the girl from the strip club today is 300 lbs, toothless, and is a crack addict. Youre better than "bitterness", dear.

Actually, reading through much of your response and the remaining paragraphs, you continue to weave in and out of refuting different actual and theoretical arguments, several not advanced by me, and then you fade off into semi confused and ambiguous thoughts, apparently directed at me as well. You appear to be assuming or second guessing my motivation in making comments. No point in addressing them individually, they are weirdly unfocused for you. They are uncharacteristic of your level. I assume youre having a bad day. Im sorry. Do you want to talk about it?

Rather than waste time, I wont address whatever is meant by "old resentments" because I dont have any. Not with you. Not with women. Not
with the womens movement when it didnt play the sort of game I mention. There is also an inside joke here, if you mean anything else by "resentments", but I realize you have no idea who I am or the course of my life or history.

Youve disappointed me with your response; Im merely a truck driver. Lucidity, consistency, intelligence; you cant expect these from me. We've all come to expect more from you. At least a clever clicky, breaking the suspense, providing the answer. But i do disagree, a solution to this question will come neither easily, nor soon. Let alone here.

Perhaps men are raised to be more self-reliant, a requirement of base. Perhaps women are not raised to take responsibility for themselves and their actions. Also a requirement of base given the harsh reality of "youre going to die, now...(no pun intended). Or perhaps men are raised to be more competitive than women, not satisfied with mere skydiving to establish simian dominance to impress mates, but rather "upping the stakes" in order to narrow the field, to limit competitors, or to eliminate a stagnant competitive arena. Perhaps a limited field increases the male's reproductive chances when the female's eye is cast upon a smaller group. For the same reason perhaps men have biologically been selected to pursue smaller social groups, which by definintion would be radiative, nomadically dispersing a population, which might lend to the survival of a greater number of selective individuals. Also, a group of smaller spheres have a larger surface area than a single large sphere with the same (internal) area; that would increase interaction with the environment, accelerating evolutionary pressures. Perhaps women are genetically selected to pursue larger social groups for protection (herd like) for themselves and their children, providing the inertia to stabilize such a system. Or maybe Im completely full of shit. Shall I continue?

Without you, Rhonda. We'll never know....

I just drive a truck. B| ;)


Base 758


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x sigx

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Well this may be too overlysimplistic but how about the majority of BASE jumpers were skydivers first....and since (I am guessing here) the ratio of men to women skydivers is still high, the same general ratio might apply to BASE - just like a microcosm of a larger population.
Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...


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"Dennis, are we talking about the 70s or are we talking about now? It seems a little blurry to me. "

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Um. We're talking about basejumping, dear. Focus!



Er...yes...so we'll talk about all this 30-year old stuff privately, eh? I already agreed with you about rabid feminism, Dennis, I just want the pendulum to stop in the middle, not swing the other way--I'm not denying the "comparable work issue" but I am denying it was the only comparison. Because if we're talking 30 years ago, gender discrimination laws were not in effect yet, y'know?

I have plenty of minutes left this month. Feel free to call, and we can argue for hours.

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Ok. This is just funny. :D What part of "men" havent you learned in 48 years? We discussed this. Men want sex. Women want money. Its too bad, but woulda shoulda coulda is no match for the way things really are. Your boss' wife divorced him and took his money, his house...the girl from the strip club today is 300 lbs, toothless, and is a crack addict. Youre better than "bitterness", dear.



No bitterness. I tried to help her because she was 18 and still a child. Him I turned in for stealing, remember? He got disbarred.

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I assume youre having a bad day. Im sorry. Do you want to talk about it?



Today was a pretty good day. OTOH, I don't want Tom to clip this and send us to SC. I'm about over SC.

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Rather than waste time, I wont address whatever is meant by "old resentments" because I dont have any.



Well, for this I apologize, because I wasn't talking about you. The 70s left an unpleasant residue, and while most everyone here is too young to remember, I'm not, and you really aren't either. It was a very bad time for men and women. The pendulum swung too far the other way.

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Or maybe Im completely full of shit. Shall I continue?



Boy, what an opening. ;)

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I just drive a truck. B| ;)



Every guy's a wise guy, Dennis. Come back to Florida and say that where I can get a good kick in.:P

Look, I stated my position above--twice. It's biology. Women and men are differently brained. We have different innate talents that are generally uniform across the population, but there will always be women who are more male-brained, just as there will always be men who are more female-brained. And there will always be those among us who reach beyond their biology to do extraordinary things.

You want to argue the socioeconomic issue? I'm the wrong person, but I'll argue the other side just for the fun of it. Just don't call me tonight. I have a headache.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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"As to teachers, I was talking about the payscales where I went to school in the 60s and 70s (I graduated highschool in '76). The men made more than the women, and most of the women had been teaching longer. "

Then this situation was heinously inequitous, wrong, and likely illegal unless gender discrimination laws were not in effect yet. I believe the logic
behind such inequities were that men had families to support and women were working "for fun". At the time, Im sure this was logical to the old culture which had existed for years...but its time had ended.
__________________________________________________

As a graduate of a teaching program within the last 5 years I have a bit of a different take on this -- many of my instructors started teaching at a time when you didn't need even post-secondary education
to become a teacher. You could start teaching right out of high-school, then maybe go to summer school if you wanted. Then in the late 60's/70's schools began looking for people with a university degree and/or a specific teaching certificate, and graduates of such programs were on a higher payscale. In Ontario here we still have the lowest spot on the payscale grid for people without university degrees, although it's doubtful anyone would now be hired without one. Maybe there were more guys getting out of the army and using the gi bill to get a teaching certificate, therefore making more money? Sorry, that;s a guess, but I don't think it's necessarily true that men made more for no reason. So the inequity may have been that less women had access to higher education.

Similarly if men had more education, they would be more likely to get promoted to admin (principal) then a female teacher who went straight to teaching out of high school.

Edited to add
I gotta say, I did most of my base jumps from 84-89, then in 2002 I went down to the Perrine to get into it again, and in 2003 went back to bridge day. One thing that impressed me was the number of females I saw - back when I started they were a real rarity. Not only were there a lot more of them, but they were HOT! (Especially, for some reason, those from Michigan). However, I'm a really shy guy, and I'm also the same age as most of their fathers, so I didn't get a chance to talk to any of them.

Still, rest assured that compared to the 80's, there are WAY more women in base now, and I only see the percentage increasing.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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As a brief commentary on Amanduh's offering and Rhonda's response; just as my saying "Im just a truck driver" is a cop out, so is saying "but Im just a girl". In terms of Nature/Nurture consider the fact that men's dads haul them out at heinously young ages to overenthusiastically begin hurling 90 mph fastballs at them, training them from a very impressionable age to be physical, spatial, and non verbal. Between age 0 and 5 sets the program for much of who you will be; Experience during this time "wires" the brain-the brain adapts and changes to meet its environment. If boys are out climbing trees, and wrist rocketing birds out of trees while girls are knitting and shopping and cooking thanksgiving dinner, their relative experiences and time spent doing these activities will determine their later adult skills and aptitudes. The abilities of the comparitively slow and unadaptable adult is based on the brilliance and energy and fluidity of the child. If one sculptor spends 1 year in his/her art, and another 30 years, which would YOU expect to be better at it. What you are overcoming is not biology but the minds ignorance of the novel challenge. Just how goofy and backwards are men at sewing, or cooking, or washing clothes, or picking out furniture? Theyre complete retards mostly...Just as when a girl gets up to bat for the co-ed team. Its probably her 100 time at bat, not her 100,000th time.

Also just because physical differences have been observed in the brains of Men and Women doesnt mean those differences relate directly to a given behavior difference or aptitude difference. And it is equally possible that the differences exist not because of genetics, but because the brain has adapted physically to its environment, the similarities in women's brains reflecting the homogeneity of their upbringing and experience. Not their double x.

Dont be a cop-out. You want to BASE hard enough, youll rock at it...

Base 758


****************************************************


x sigx

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As a brief commentary on Amanduh's offering and Rhonda's response; just as my saying "Im just a truck driver" is a cop out, so is saying "but Im just a girl". In terms of Nature/Nurture consider the fact that men's dads haul them out at heinously young ages to overenthusiastically begin hurling 90 mph fastballs at them, training them from a very impressionable age to be physical, spatial, and non verbal. Between age 0 and 5 sets the program for much of who you will be; Experience during this time "wires" the brain-the brain adapts and changes to meet its environment. If boys are out climbing trees, and wrist rocketing birds out of trees while girls are knitting and shopping and cooking thanksgiving dinner, their relative experiences and time spent doing these activities will determine their later adult skills and aptitudes. The abilities of the comparitively slow and unadaptable adult is based on the brilliance and energy and fluidity of the child. If one sculptor spends 1 year in his/her art, and another 30 years, which would YOU expect to be better at it. What you are overcoming is not biology but the minds ignorance of the novel challenge. Just how goofy and backwards are men at sewing, or cooking, or washing clothes, or picking out furniture? Theyre complete retards mostly...Just as when a girl gets up to bat for the co-ed team. Its probably her 100 time at bat, not her 100,000th time.

Also just because physical differences have been observed in the brains of Men and Women doesnt mean those differences relate directly to a given behavior difference or aptitude difference. And it is equally possible that the differences exist not because of genetics, but because the brain has adapted physically to its environment, the similarities in women's brains reflecting the homogeneity of their upbringing and experience. Not their double x.

Dont be a cop-out. You want to BASE hard enough, youll rock at it...



It's not a cop-out to describe reality, Dennis. And you are not just a truckdriver.

I addressed, albeit briefly, the issue in your post already, but it was not the question Katee posed.

The original question--and title of the thread--is "Why so few females?" not "Can women be good or even great basejumpers?"

We already know the answer to the latter question, because there are shining examples of great women basejumpers for us to point to.

That's just more reality.

But we still lack a satisfactory answer to the question that was asked.

rl

Edited to add:
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If one sculptor spends 1 year in his/her art, and another 30 years, which would YOU expect to be better at it.



The one with inborn talent.
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Just how goofy and backwards are men at sewing, or cooking, or washing clothes, or picking out furniture?



Are you caling me a bad rigger, a bad cook, a dirty bastard, and a sloppy decorator? ;)

It's always the same: 100%Nature-100%Nurture
Memento Audere Semper

903

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heres a take:.base is fucking dangerous, inherently stupid, and altogether unnecessary, and women have the presence of mind to recognize this, and stay away thus preserving themseleves with thier maternal instinct..
or maybe it just takes balls, and most women dont have them...
(but the ones who have what it takes to base without are so incredibly beautiful that maybe its a goodthing they are so few and far between...)


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Cooking? Who are the best cooks in the world? Men.

Sewing? Who are the greatest clothing makers (and riggers)? Men.

It just has to do with a more logical brain. Anything we decide to do, we do better. It doesnt mean you ladies are bad, it just means you're not as good. HAHAHAHAHA. Oh and we also have two heads.

So attached as images, here's a couple of bits of info for you women to take home and study.


.
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

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Cooking? Who are the best cooks in the world? Men.



the reason some of us aren't such great cooks is because we're doing the laundry, refereeing the children and vaccuming at the same time we're burning dinner...:S

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the reason some of us aren't such great cooks is because we're doing the laundry, refereeing the children and vaccuming at the same time we're burning dinner...:S



Laundry... just press start.

Vacuuming... just prest start.

Referee kids... they don't need a referee, just one good smack.

Now you should be free to cook a good meal for your man... so get off the internet and into the kitchen!!!


:)

.
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

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If boys are out climbing trees, and wrist rocketing birds out of trees while girls are knitting and shopping and cooking thanksgiving dinner, their relative experiences and time spent doing these activities will determine their later adult skills and aptitudes. The abilities of the comparitively slow and unadaptable adult is based on the brilliance and energy and fluidity of the child. If one sculptor spends 1 year in his/her art, and another 30 years, which would YOU expect to be better at it. What you are overcoming is not biology but the minds ignorance of the novel challenge.



Agreed. I personally have always been a "tom-boy"..the 'monkey' who was up in the tree refusing to come down (except for the few times I fell out lol), fishing and hunting with my dad..it just goes on and on...my other two sisters were always the "in doors type" wanting me to play 'barbie' with them :D. They look at what I do now and think I'm crazy..but it's been with me since I was really young...and it's somethign I can't necessarily make go away. I'm not coping-out on base by any means, so please don't think that by my posts. You will see me at an exit point sooner than you think.

*Edited to add: Abbie, you crack me up dude! You obviously know exactly where a woman's place is! ;) Now get in tha kitchen and make me some pie!

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Just how goofy and backwards are men at sewing, or cooking, or washing clothes, or picking out furniture?



Are you caling me a bad rigger, a bad cook, a dirty bastard, and a sloppy decorator? ;)

It's always the same: 100%Nature-100%Nurture



I knew I could count on you, Nitro. :)
Two words:

Twin studies.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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