Rubber bands?!

[KidWicked 0]

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"All A's"

What about freestanders? They protrude out further the lower you get.

I was speaking in very general terms, but you are correct.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[K763 0]

Hi All!

Just a quick note to let you all know that there will be new stuff posted on our website regarding the Multi, it's design intention, pros and cons, photos, and tech news on the rubber bands.

We did already mention to STOP using the black bands approximately 2 weeks ago (Tom, can you help me find that thread?) and switch to the beige skydiving bands.

I'm sorry that Peter had such a scary experience; I'm sorry that the person that loaned the rig did not have the new information; I'm sorry that the borrower/jumper did not check the pack job and ask questions on the unknown equipment; and I'm very happy that Peter lived.

Basic Research continues to stand behind all of it's products 100%, and would like to remind everyone that any equipment is unlikely to perform appropriately if it is not understood, rigged, packed, and used according to the manufacturers intentions. As far as any culpability issues go, probably 30% of the responsibility goes to the manufacturer to keep abreast of potential problems and educate it's users, 30% lies with the owner to maintain his gear to current industry standards, 30% lies with the jumper to check the gear before jumping it, and 10% lies with Lady Luck. Good thing for Peter, Lady Luck was on his side, since 60% of the mix was against him.

Again, we invite you to check out our website as early as this evening for news and information on this topic. And as always, our door is open for your visits, phone calls, or e-mails, and we sincerely encourage you to contact us on this issue or any other issue you may have questions about. Open communication and the sharing of knowledge is key to everyone having a fun, safe, and exhilarating experience in this crazy, wonderful world of BASE.

Sincerely,
Karen Thomas
Apex BASE Perris

[Rauk 0]

Just an observation . Don't think i will be the one to tackle the math part either.

[DexterBase 0]

I'm just wondering why Basic Research continued to recommend those black bands for so long. The standard skydiving variety 1 1/4" bands (cut in half lengthwise) work exactly the way they're needed to. They're just strong enough to control the tailgate but they'll break rather than hang up.

Why did BR push the black rubberbands if nothing was gained by using them?

I've heard countless people talk about, "they're fine as long as you don't overlap them while... and as long as you trim them..."

That's not the answer. You shouldn't have to add steps to use a rubberband. You shouldn't add three of four items that can kill you.

BR knew there was a problem with those rubberbands and there were threads here talking about it. Reports from the field of tailgate hangups and other scary stuff.

Why didn't BR issue a press release telling the BASE community that there was a potential problem with the bands?

Most interesting to me is that BR decided to use a new type of rubberband when there was already a readily available one that works just fine. Was it an effort to have a "BASE-specific" rubberband? Was it an efort to make another $5 here and $5 there? Personally, the increased odds of a dangerous hangup far outweighs any of these perks for BR.

Please tell me that there was an actual reason for BR offering those black rubberbands.

[peterk 0]

Karen,

Thank you for your post, I am glad that Apex/BR posted officially to not use black bands. Also, please note that I have very little experience with the multi, as this was my first and last jump with one, and also that I would be dead if I was using this on anything less than 350'. Additionally, I have read the user manual for BR, since I often sit at work and read everything I can, and just checked the BR website owners manual again.

Section 4, MULTI, does not state anything about not using black bands. I did a search, and did not find anything here or on blinc about not using black bands. I also think that if there was anything on here, I would have read about it, but since I don't have a BR or multi, might very well have looked past it. However, it does still recommend on the BR website that rubber bands are to be used...

I was not trying to assign blame with my post. I did not try to divide blame into exact percentages- in fact, I am the only one responsible for myself and my equipment when I leave an exit point. I am grateful to you for retrofitting the container within 5 minutes of the incident. I have seen several other people using black bands on multis, and some even posted here that they do, and will stop. I hope that these posts will keep someone from making the mistake that I made.

Its all good, glad to be alive...

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

[Treejumps 0]

It seems to me that the use of black rubberbands was known to be bad ju ju several years ago. When they first came out with them they were just too strong. I have no idea why anyone would ever reccomend for base a band that was proven in skydiving to cause problems.

Hopefully this near incident will finally get it through to everyone: Black bands are black death.

Also, stowing the multi (if you see any need/use for it in the first place) is a bad idea. Why not just stow the corners of your canopy into the containers? Its also very lucky that the canopy did not fall out of the container during the hang up. Imagine what a mess that would have been.

[hookitt 0]

This message is not intended to be inflammatory. It is meant to simply point out my opinion and observations.

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We did already mention to STOP using the black bands approximately 2 weeks ago

The message on an internet thread. I for one missed it completely which suggests a good majority of the people missed it as well. Threads get buried.

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Basic Research continues to stand behind all of it's products 100%, and would like to remind everyone that any equipment is unlikely to perform appropriately if it is not understood, rigged, packed, and used according to the manufacturers intentions.

According to the known manufacturers recomendations, it was rigged correctly. There's common sense and there is by the book. According to the person who rigged it, it was by the book. I didn't see the bulletin so it stands to reason the bands are still in use by others who didn't.

My opinion is not to use multi stows at all. If the rig was mine, I'd have tested it over and over to see if I could make it hang up. Even after that, reasoning wouldn't allow them to be on the rig in the first place. Read my post above that mentions hesitater loops. Since the rig probably belongs to a person who's background isn't in manufacturing, there was no reason to perform such tests.

The black rubberband I saw was as wide as the standard mini rubberband cut in half. You cut it even further in half making it about 1/4 as wide as a standard mini rubberband. Seriously, that's a pain in the ass. Furthermore, since it's a problem, just do away with it all together.

The jumper did check the equipment. It was also checked by a person more familiar with the multi.

That's all for now.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[KidWicked 0]

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I'm just wondering why Basic Research continued to recommend those black bands for so long. The standard skydiving variety 1 1/4" bands (cut in half lengthwise) work exactly the way they're needed to. They're just strong enough to control the tailgate but they'll break rather than hang up.

Why did BR push the black rubberbands if nothing was gained by using them?

I've heard countless people talk about, "they're fine as long as you don't overlap them while... and as long as you trim them..."

That's not the answer. You shouldn't have to add steps to use a rubberband. You shouldn't add three of four items that can kill you.

BR knew there was a problem with those rubberbands and there were threads here talking about it. Reports from the field of tailgate hangups and other scary stuff.

Why didn't BR issue a press release telling the BASE community that there was a potential problem with the bands?

Most interesting to me is that BR decided to use a new type of rubberband when there was already a readily available one that works just fine. Was it an effort to have a "BASE-specific" rubberband? Was it an efort to make another $5 here and $5 there? Personally, the increased odds of a dangerous hangup far outweighs any of these perks for BR.

Please tell me that there was an actual reason for BR offering those black rubberbands.

I did my FJC with BR at the Perrine 3 years ago (or was it 4 years ago? I forget), and the BR staff recommended the black bands. During the course however, TomA happened to see me packing on the grass and said something to me like "I wish BR would stop using those black bands".

So even back then there seemed to be a contradiction between what BR was advocating, and practical reality. I don't understand BR's thinking here.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[KidWicked 0]

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Why didn't BR issue a press release telling the BASE community that there was a potential problem with the bands?

There could well be an economic incentive not to report problems, in the sense that it may dissuade people from buying their products.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there is no regulatory agency (such as the FAA) that has oversight over BASE equipment manufacturers. (If I'm wrong about that - please chime in.) In that sense, BR has no legal obligation to report problems.

Is this good or bad for BASE jumpers? I'd personally say it's bad, but I'm sure someone will jump on here in a minute at the mere mention of "the man" (ray? :-)

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[DexterBase 0]

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Another thing to keep in mind is that there is no regulatory agency (such as the FAA) that has oversight over BASE equipment manufacturers. (If I'm wrong about that - please chime in.) In that sense, BR has no legal obligation to report problems.

You are correct. BASE gear is totally unregulated. There's no rules or anything about BASE gear manufaturing.

I think BR would weigh the cost of admitting they were wrong about the rubberbands, vs the bad rap they'd get if someone was seriously hurt or killed from using a method they promoted. Which very nearly happened.

[K763 0]

Hi Everyone....

First of all, I must apologize. The thread about the black bands was on BLINC magazine three weeks ago, not here. This is the link, I hope it goes clicky:

http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22392&highlight=black+bands

The black bands were originally brought into our product line because we found them to be superior in relation to the tail gate. Then, because we had them on hand, we began using them in other areas, such as the multi. When it became clear that the black bands may be hazardous in relation to the Multi, we immediately stopped recommending their use, we bought other bands for that application, and began putting the new bands into our products. This occurred about 3 weeks ago. We did not give one single thought to the cost of this band or that band, NOT ONE! It is quite insulting for anyone to think that we would jeopardize a person's life to make an extra 5 bucks here and there by selling black rubber bands. If we had so little concern for safety and were that greedy, I'm sure BR would have folded long ago from pure bad karma.

When you guys say such things, I hope you realize that you are completely dissing some of the people that have given their lives to making this sport safer and more fun for everyone. They don't drive Porches or BMW's, or live in fancy houses. They live more modestly than most of the jumpers they cater to. We are all just people enjoying an extreme sport, and a rare few have made it their livelihood, not from greed, but from love of the sport. To think otherwise is pretty much sacrilege, IMHO.

A press release is a good idea, and it will be done.

The one thing I wish everyone agreed upon is that we are all on the same side here. We all want to savor the freedom of jumping off things and feeling more alive than any other humans on Earth. It saddens me when these discussions degenerate into insults, attacks, and laying blame. The fact is that we are all personally responsible for our choices, be it driving too fast, smoking cigarettes, not doing gear checks, or jumping antennas in low fog. All of these things can kill you, is anyone to blame? Yes, the person that made the decision.

Basic Research, now known as Apex BASE Perris, will continually strive to better it's products and services, discover or invent better ways of doing things, educate the jumpers that are affected, and listen to the feedback we receive from the field. Your input is vital to this process. Please continue to contact the developers and manufacturers of BASE gear and give them your thoughts. If you see something that looks dangerous, mention it! And please, remember that as businesses, gear makers don't have all the time in the world to surf the Boards. Please make the effort to contact the manufacturers directly, rather than wait for a post on a Board to come to their attention. I say this for all the manufacturers, not just Apex. In order for BASE to be as safe as possible, we need to continually communicate with each other and make calculated changes as the need arises.

And finally, if all does go wrong and you go in, will you regret your decision to jump? If you can't handle that possible eventuality, then you probably shouldn't be in BASE. After all, it is a life-threatening avocation, no matter how safe the gear, the site, the conditions, etc. Every time you jump you take your life into your own hands. For me, that is the bottom line that leaves me feeling free, empowered, exhilarated, and at peace with my own destiny.

Be safe, have fun, and soft landings!

Karen Thomas
BASE #763
Apex BASE Perris
Basic Research, Inc.

[pBASEtobe 0]

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I hope it goes clicky:

Nope, but here you go.

[url "http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22392&highlight=black+bands"]Clicky[url]

[DexterBase 0]

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And finally, if all does go wrong and you go in, will you regret your decision to jump? If you can't handle that possible eventuality, then you probably shouldn't be in BASE.

Agreed. But I know enough to make educated decisions. I have made an educated decision to NOT use the black rubber bands because I've felt (for years, not three weeks) that they're unsafe. Many of the people who use your gear don't spend as much time as I have researching the sport and doing year upon year of reading, talking to very experienced jumpers, and researching the physics involved in our sport.

When you teach a new jumper, especialy in a FJC, to use the black rubberbands, what do you think he/she will do when jumping out in the field? They typically don't have the experience required to determine for themselves whether a subtle detail like that could possibly be fatal. That comes with experience and learning from a mentor.

The black rubberbands were in use for years. What happened that BR suddenly reversed their view on them?

When the largest BASE equipment manufacturer recommends a certain method, that carries a tremendous weight in the field, especially among younger jumpers who rely on that info to be safe out there.

Had that rig been taken of a slightly lower exit point, we'd be discussing this in a fatality thread. That's pretty serious.

[mnischalke 0]

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My opinion is not to use multi stows at all. If the rig was mine, I'd have tested it over and over to see if I could make it hang up. Even after that, reasoning wouldn't allow them to be on the rig in the first place. Read my post above that mentions hesitater loops. Since the rig probably belongs to a person who's background isn't in manufacturing, there was no reason to perform such tests.

I've only jumped my multi once, but I wasn't impressed enough to use it since. I have looked at those little stow points inside the container, though. If you think about it, the stow points are restraining the bridle after the container itself is already open. That means the canopy is free to move about (even exit the container) while the bands are still releasing. Maybe I am just overthinking it, but it seems to be just one more thing that could really fuck up my day.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[tymkoder 0]

Karen,

Thanks for taking the time to put yourself in the line of fire. I am sure you understand not much usefullness comes from this board in these situations. As we can see from the posts people enjoy sticking poking and repoking the dead horse. We are glad that peterK lived.
I hope that all the manufactures take some time to update thier pages as soon as possible, as we all need GOOD current info. I know I would rather get it from your site than a thread on this board.

I am currently jumping a Reactor4 and fox 245 with multi and vents. I dont use the stows.

CHICKEN MAN
BASE 954

[TomAiello 25]

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I am sure you understand not much usefullness comes from this board in these situations.

Au contraire.

I really think this is a situation where a quick, widely read (in a geographic sense) communication medium (such as this) can be very advantageous. Karen's use of this forum to spread what is essentially a safety bulletin from a gear manufacturer is probably one of the highest, best uses for it.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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Please tell me that there was an actual reason for BR offering those black rubberbands.

I'm guessing that they thought, at the time, that they were superior for the purposes. Making incremental advances (and the accompanying missteps) is the way that all of our gear gets better in the long run.

I doubt they were trying to make money off them (even the "expensive rubber bands cost, what, 20 cents a piece?).

This kind of thing happens all the time in other industries (like skydiving, but also things like automobiles). Something makes it all the way through prototyping and field testing, gets released, and only after it's in use in the real world does it get enough use to reveal a problem.

Just because some folks in the field think something is dangerous isn't generally sufficient justification for recalling it. In general, that's reserved for (a) when the manufacturer decides it was a bad idea, or (b) when it is demonstrably unsafe, usually resulting in an accident of some kind.

BASE gear manufacturing is a small, and not terribly lucrative field. You can't really expect a BASE company to do as much testing as a car company, for example. Even General Motors has safety recalls.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[RayLosli 11]

Would every one please put all black rubber bands in a envelope.
Mail to my house....thank's

[tymkoder 0]

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I really think this is a situation where a quick, widely read (in a geographic sense) communication medium (such as this) can be very advantageous. Karen's use of this forum to spread what is essentially a safety bulletin from a gear manufacturer is probably one of the highest, best uses for it.

Tom,
I agree with you completely. I was not trying to say that Karen's reply was misplaced. I am glad that she did post. This SHOULD be a place for the spread of information.
Unfortunately that good information is overshadowed by posts just trying to "BEAT the dead horse". instead of saying thanks Karen. we get post such as why didnt you tell us sooner, or other BLAH.


Thanks Karen for the info.

CHICKEN MAN
BASE 954

[Treejumps 0]

Hi Karen,

I for one was not suggesting that reccomending the black bands had anything to do with money. There is no money to be made from the few we use, so it is merely perplexing to me that something that I have known as general base knowledge (that black bands were black death) for several years, was being reccomended by any experienced jumpers. I really was not aware that they were being widely used. It is and has been for some time now a very bad idea to use the black bands in hte base environment.

I think that this type of useage of these forums are the way they were origianlly envisioned, as a great way to quickly distribute information.

[K763 0]

Thanks guys, for your support. This does really suck.

Ray, I have pounds of the black bands left, how many do you want?

Russel, I will still be using the black bands on my Tailgate WHICH IS THE ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THEM TO BEGIN WITH. Has anywone had problems with them on the Tailgate besides BelNic?

In any case, all is well that ends well. Y'all can use your tight black bands to shoot your pal in the ass when his back is turned, or to train your cat or dog or kid. Hey, if some smart carpenter out there wants something to do, he could design a rubber band gun that uses these black bands. I have other ideas, but probably not ones that would pass the moderator....(use your imagination...)

I'm going home. It has been a loooonng day..
K

[bps 0]

Hi Karen --

In my opinion, the black rubber bands are not suitable for tailgates either. The black bands are much stronger and it takes considerably more force to break them. If a black band were to get hung up on a tailgate during an opening sequence, it may take longer for it to break or it may not break at all. Granted, it's highly unlikely that a rubber band could get hung up, but if it does, why not have a rubber band that will break?

Bottom line: I cannot see why someone would want to use a black rubber band.

I suspect that the trend started as a way to make rubber bands last longer if your rubberband is girth-hitched onto the tailgate. I personally do not like girth-hitching the rubber band because I see it as a potential hang-up point as the rubber band tries to roll off during the opening sequence. It's a highly unlikely scenario, but I'm all about the odds...

It's all personal choice, but for me, I cannot see any advantage to using a black rubber band in BASE. I only see disadvantages. Until I discover something different, it's brown bands only for me.

Bryan