Mentors, please stand up

[BASE813 0]

I have heard alot about people being a mentor, so those that have "mentored" please stand up and give your thoughts about why you thought you could mentor and what benefit you gave to your student.

I have heard of people being a mentor after 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 blah blah blah jumps.....

I have heard about people taking first timers to objects that even the mentor has not jumped before, or taking the student in daylight to get "the video" for a training aid, or students jumping with twisted leg straps cause they were not noticed on the pre jump check, or 180s cause the packing lesson was moved half way through and a twist was put in............ the more I hear the more I realise that people being taught are not getting proper lessons.........

Only 4 years ago in the UK I tried to find a mentor and people with 200, 400 etc jumps said they were too inexperienced to take on students............... so in the past 4 years what exactly has changed?

Only having 2.5 years active in the sport I know some people will say "what the fuck does he know" - but I have some concerns that I think are valid............

[brits17 0]

About the time I picked up base this past year, there was a friend of mine with the desire to get into it as well. There wasn't anyone with the time or willingness to dedicate to teaching/mentoring. I basically just appeared at doorsteps when I heard there were folks going out to make a jump. I did some solos. I taught myself how to pack for the most part, and learned what I could gather from a slew of different sources. Thanks to Ted and Chris for allowing me to tag along.

If an individual didn't have the desire to take on the responsibility to teach me, they certainly weren't for my friend. He had gear, he was going to jump no matter what. He had done some ground crew and research and was as well prepared as he could possibly be for his first huck. I didn't want him going alone, so the next time I went out, I invited him along. This pattern continued for several jumps to come. If you take a look at my log you will see I was/am just a newbie myself when I sent him off. *gasp!*

Now, he has as many jumps as me (didn't have that far to catch up ) and he's part of our regular 'crew.' I don't regret what I did, and I don't think it was wrong. This kid was going to learn to base, whether by himself or not. I'd rather him not. Of course, he was also an exception. He has great awareness and athletic ability, with a level head.

Do I consider myself a mentor? No. I've sent a couple folks off for their first jump and thus far they have a good track record. Gathering information from multiple sources is how I'm learning, and how those indivuduals I've put off are learning. I do what I can along the way to help others. I'm aware of the dangers in the sport and the last thing I want to see is a friend be injured or killed and knowing that I could have done more.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[TomAiello 25]

The first time someone approached me to mentor them, I had around 190 jumps. I told them to wait until I had 200 jumps. Fortunately, at that point, that was only about a week later.

My general thought for mentoring (which I followed in that case) was: if they are more likely to survive with you helping, then you ought to help. In that case, it came down to the fact that he was going to jump regardless, even if no one helped guide him.

If my mentoring was going to cause someone to take up the sport (but if I didn't step in they'd stay on the dropzone) I'd stay away. If they were going to start jumping anyway, I'd step in.

One of the problems with this situation is that the more ethical jumpers will often consider themselves unqualified as mentors. That means that the less ethical jumpers often become the teachers of the next generation, and we all stand around in shock as each successive generation strays farther form "our" ethical standards.

A prime example of this is happening right now, out here. We're seeing second and third generation "deathcampers" (i.e. someone was put off with no jumps, so they put off their friend, who put off one of his friends). The "deathcamp" generations have almost no interaction with the larger BASE community, and zero knowledge of or respect for our community ethics and history.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. But what I can say is that if we stand around disapproving, but taking no action, in ten years we'll be surrounded by a bunch of jumpers who were "deathcamped" into the sport, and have lots of video, but few skills and fewer ethics. And we will have no one to blame but ourselves.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[rfarris 1]

Quote

I didn't want him going alone, so the next time I went out I invited him along

Had a similar experience. I was real hesitant about doing it. Hell I only had maybe 10 jumps myself. He was determined to make a jump, with me, or alone, even off a "B" for his first one for Christ's sake. So one night I called him up and invited him to come on a climb with me. The jump went well.
He's since moved away, but last I've heard he's doing fine and still jumping.

At first I was scared to let anyone know what I had done. But as I look back now, I know I did the right thing.

Rod

[Faber 0]

i know i dont live in the US and acsess to gear here aint as easy as in the US,but i also had a guy begging me to teach him,i kept saying no and guess what he now want to do it the right way,by practice canopy skills and finding the best jumper to teach him..

i dont think jump#s mean much about mentor,but knowlegede allarround will make you a good mentor.

example,should i by my 130+ jumps go teach anyone? i dont think so,i only did 1 slider up and 2 stowed jumps so far,i think i would be a bad mentor to any new.I know what im doing but not knowing about other aspects of the sport means that i shouldnt even teach after 200jumps...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[BASE813 0]

Quote

My general thought for mentoring (which I followed in that case) was: if they are more likely to survive with you helping, then you ought to help. In that case, it came down to the fact that he was going to jump regardless, even if no one helped guide him.

i knew someone who when I gave them advice about jumping when I had 10 jumps still went out and SLed a 120ft crane with a bungy and a CRW rig, he fucked both his ankles up and wondered why he got so badly hurt, but he still went around the DZ telling everyone he was a BASE jumper, after 6 months not being at the DZ and out BASE jumping people asked me if i jumped with xxxx xxxxxxxx, it seems he was there boasting.

When I heard this, I gave him my "BASE file" that I had spent 2 years getting together, my friend lived with him and he never read it, instead he prefered to go around and tell people he had BASE jumped lower than me!

some people can be taken under your wing, others cant - they will just crave the reputation of being a BASE jumper, with the ease of making some BASE jumps nowadays I feel the wave of people who want to be "known" outways the people that do it for their own reason.............

I may have helped him by being a mentor, but at time I certainly did not have the experiece to do so.............. so where is the balance?

I feel slightly cheated................

[Zennie 0]

Quote

if they are more likely to survive with you helping, then you ought to help. In that case, it came down to the fact that he was going to jump regardless, even if no one helped guide him.

Like Brit (and maybe a bit because of her ) I sort of got thrust into the "mentor", for lack of a better term, role before I personally felt ready.

Like Tom, my personal preference would have been for me to have 200+ jumps before I took on anyone, but I knew there were a few folks who would jump regardless, so I felt it would be better to impart what little knowledge I had upon them in the interest of safety.

I consulted with several far more experienced jumpers on how to handle it as well. So I didn't fly totally blind.

They've since become very knowledgable, talented jumpers in their own right. JenneJenn is probably my first "official" student. But around here we tend to sort of do things as a group, so it's really more of a combined effort.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[QuickDraw 0]

I think anyone with any experience, whether 10 or 100 or whatever, has something to offer.

Sitting on the bottom rung looking up, I'm pretty sure I know what I would expect & want from a mentor,
obviously experience comes into play, and the more the better, but there is so much to learn beforehand
i.e. packing techniques/stealth/groundcrewing/rigging mods & all the Q's & A's that accompany just those topics.

I'm sticking my neck out here,
but I would think anyone who has over 100 jumps from a good selection (technical to easy) of objects
has (or should have) the ability to mentor someone right upto the point where they are ready jump.

At that point you instruct them to do a FJC* (if available) otherwise maybe get someone in to supervise
who is respected/current and familiar with the teaching methods of the first mentor as well as the object to be jumped.

Its been a long day at work & my opinions are probably full of holes, but does that sound so bad ?


* - My argument here is that having the theory & the knowledge onboard prior to a FJC
will give you more time jumping/trusting (and improving) your packjobs & skills.

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

but I would think anyone who has over 100 jumps from a good selection (technical to easy) of objects
has (or should have) the ability to mentor someone right upto the point where they are ready jump.

At that point you instruct them to do a FJC*

Honestly, I think that the most important time to have a good mentor is _after_ the FJC, as you start to stretch your own wings, so to speak.

Both before _and_ after, would, of course, be preferable.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[QuickDraw 0]

Sorry... i forgot to add, that when you get back, you put your newfound skills to use with your mentor as you quite rightly say.

So, on the whole, would you agree that this would be considered a good ethical & responsible approach by both parties ?

If not, what would your concerns be ?

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[evilivan 0]

Hmmmm... interesting point. I actually have a lot to say on this subject, but the Al Co Hoool affluence is por-ably not the best place to start from.... But my points are (to be revisited in the morning):

Seems to me that mentoring was the traditional way into the sport. This had its downsides; a mate helps out a mate, no process regards suitability of the student or the mentor. But the new system which has appeared over the past few years (in order to combat the above) has to revert to very basic critera regards access requirements.... 150/200/250 skydives is very little to go on and gives you no idea of the person who is asking for the course (I have personal experience of this). I could write more here, but typing is taking so long I'll go directly to my point: I think that the people offering FJC's should only take people on the recommendation of BASE jumpers they know; that we way we get the best of both worlds.

More tomorrow when I'm sober. And on work time

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[Skinflicka 0]

There are two different concepts here I think that are receiving the same attention.

1) teaching

Teaching takes a particular skill set. A skilled teacher conveys accurately the facts that are needed to be retained and he does this in such a way that the learning method of the student is recognized and optimized upon. Most people can't even get this part right. This is akin to a mental download at best.

2) Mentoring

The way of the Jedi, so to speak. The master takes the student under his wing and not only teaches but is a role model, instills ethics, morals and the basis for further learning and exploration. True understanding, in effect.


You cannot mentor without sufficient experience. You can only teach.

And yes, you. The one with a few jumps when you "put someone off". You have responsibility for them. It's your fault when they're dead. No exceptions. The mentor releases the student and responsibility is assumed by the student. This is because responsibility for the student was accepted at the beginning of the eduction. Quite a burden.


Don't kill some daft twat who knows no better. Find another way to tickle your enormous ego.

Just to clarify...

Teacher...think FJC. You have a week of me and you're away.

Mentor...Live and breathe like me grasshopper and I'll make you a star. Now go clean the toilet while I meditate.

Seriously, there's a big difference...and it shows.

Thanks again to Skypunk (RIP bro') ,Jimmy ,Mike, Steve, Mark and Justin. Never a teacher in sight.

Lump-in-throatedly,

$kin.

Prizes to anyone who gets to read my posts before Mr Aiello's son, Tom deletes them.

[RayLosli 11]

Teacher...think FJC. You have a week of me and you're away.

Mentor...Live and breathe like me grasshopper and I'll make you a star. Now go clean the toilet while I meditate.

Seriously, there's a big difference...and it shows.
.........................................................................................

I told myself I was not going to post on this but.........
I don't know why your talking about this, It just common
Knowledge. (not talking about you Skin)
If you are Teaching somebody.BASE that lives in your Area.
You are stuck with that Mother F##ker for awhile.

All a FJC does and should do is .......
Unless that person is going home with his instructor.
Make that person that is taking that course presentable
enough in basic body positioning, awareness and basic
packing and other mechanics to stay alive.
A good example is when that person leaves potato-land
bridge after several days of class and jumping, (now what ?)
He/she, wants to get out and jump. that's good and natural
to be hungry for a jump, but your not a BASE jumper yet ?
The FJC does nothing for that. All it does is give that person
The chance to acquire enough Basic knowledge to approach
REAL, BASE Jumpers and have enough of the Basic Skills.
So they might let you jump with them and learn to be a
proper BASE jumper.

New jumpers that are hungry to jump are good.
That's what keeps things rolling and fun but there are (BSR)..
Basic Safety rules and proper etiquette. Also a lot of passed
down skills that need to be acquired. If you don't learn that it's
wont take long till you get busted up.

Now go out and have fun and Play Nice

[Skinflicka 0]

Hear, hear.

That's the post I had in mind, Ray. The only part where I think you may give some people too much credit is that these concepts are "common knowledge". If only...

You can always tell an enlightened and well educated man. His opinions, naturally, coincide with yours.

Stay alive little ones.

$kin.

Prizes to anyone who gets to read my posts before Mr Aiello's son, Tom deletes them.

[LouYoung 0]

I agree 100% with you Skin; I was thinking the same thing as I read this thread.

FJC's (teachers) have students.

Mentors have proteges.