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rickfri59

Gear Question

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Please don’t throw me over the edge for what may be a naïve question.

I have never seen a BASE rig. Is there a reserve canopy in the container? Or is it more like….”There’s no time to deal with a malfunction so why bother with a reserve”

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Not a BASE jumper myself,
but interested.
AFAIK the Sorcerer rig has a reserve. AFAIK again, this was the reason why Eric Fradet invented the Skyhook.
Other rigs are for single canopies
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Is there a reserve canopy in the container?



My short answer: Yes.

Every single BASE rig has a reserve. 99% of them lack a main.

In jumping a single canopy system, you place the same faith that you do in jumping a skydiving system--that your final option absolutely, positively, will open.

In BASE the final option is also the first option. But since it's generally been packed more recently, and by me personally, I tend to feel a little more warm and fuzzy about it than I do about the reserve in my skydiving rig.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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But since it's generally been packed more recently, and by me personally, I tend to feel a little more warm and fuzzy about it than I do about the reserve in my skydiving rig.


I don't get this one... is there proof that a pack job thats been packed for more then a month leads to worse openings? Also Tom, its really easy to get your riggers ticket. With your BASE packing skills thats like a weekend project, hell even I am working on my ticket :ph34r:
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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I don't get this one... is there proof that a pack job thats been packed for more then a month leads to worse openings?



The only formal research I've seen on this is an old army study on rounds that isn't really applicable.

It is my opinion, based on observation, that a recently packed BASE canopy will open slightly faster and cleaner than one that has been left packed for longer than about a week or so. I theorize that this is because leaving some very small amount of air space in the folds of the canopy allows inflation to take place slightly faster. The difference is of such small scale that I think it is irrelevant except on ultra low objects. That said, I will always pack for a sub 200' freefall within the 24 hours prior to the jump.

I was really more talking about my personal feelings of confidence in my equipment at the exit. The more recently I have used the gear, without reconfiguring it, the more recently I packed it, and the more it has been under my direct supervision the entire time, the more "warm and fuzzy" I feel about it at the exit.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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That old military study showed that inflation times changed noticeably in the first month after a canopy was packed into a tight - far tighter than BASE container - ejection seat. After one month, the curve flattens out. Between one month and two years, the difference in inflation time is insignificant. Beyond two years, you start worrying about rotted rubber bands and rusted hardware.

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I don't get this one... is there proof that a pack job thats been packed for more then a month leads to worse openings?



Why would you need proof?

Here's a scenario:
John Doe and you go out to your local 240' E, slightly underhung, with a "no-outs" landing area. You are both jumping identical gear, BASE specific everything, same wingloadings etc., except your packjob has been in the container for 9 mos. John Doe's has a 1-day-old repack.

Imagine yourself all geared up and standing on the edge, the slight breeze blowing right through you, your balls hiding behind your lungs...somewhere around 3-4 seconds to impact. Your hand-held, 46"PC is clear and ready to go. You look over at J.D. and he says: "Man this is pretty low. I'm glad I repacked my rig last night! ...321-CYA!" John Doe jumps and has a crack-on opening, a long eight second canopy ride, enabling him to set up for and execute his landing perfectly.

You think about your single canopy, neatly folded in your container for the last 3/4 year, possibly being tossed around, compressed, or otherwise jostled about. How comfortable are you feeling now? No reserve, no time to deal with hesitation or malfunction. It has to be perfect.
Me? I'd walk down and live to jump another day. What you do is pretty much your business, so jump away--

I hope it's worth it.
mh

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John Doe and you go out to your local 240' E,....

321-CYA!" John Doe jumps and has a crack-on opening, a long eight second canopy ride



hey he cheaded,he must have SLéd it;)

Mac you now know why o got 3 perfect onheaddings on one of your locals whith in 3 hours:P:ph34r::D

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your packjob has been in the container for 9 mos.


If i didnt jump for 9 month i must have been injuryed,if so im not sure i would start up on freefalling 240ft:ph34r::Dbut hey,im NOT going to test it:P

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Me? I'd walk down and live to jump another day.


so would i,beers on me:ph34r::D

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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I'm asking from the PIA/FAA side of having the FAR's changed from 120 day repack on reserves to 180 repack. BASE uses a lot of the same techniques that riggers use in packing reserves so there might be more field data out there with video evidence of different openings with longer packed pack jobs. Its hard to tell the difference between 25 feet when you are opening at 900 feet, but at 300 feet next to an object its much easier to tell the differences.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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There are so many factors other than the time since packing. So I don't think a statistical analysis will prove anything on packing time.

Further, standing on the cliff doing gear check, do you remeber whenever where you put the slider 9 months ago?

On the original subject: The BASE canopy is better than the reserve, since:
- Better quality canopy
- You packed it yourself
- Way simpler than a reserve

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>- Better quality canopy

Have any of the BASE manufactors opened their shops up to the FAA or any regulating agency and been forced to do drop tests of their canopies? I know the old Raven's were certified, but are any of the newer canopies?

>- Way simpler than a reserve

Yes and no. With shrivel flaps there are rigging issues that pop up, and with ripcord deployed reserves there are issues that pop up there also. Pin rigs introduce more rigging complexities into the mix also. They are about equal on their complexity in design.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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I don't get this one... is there proof that a pack job thats been packed for more then a month leads to worse openings?



Yesterday I opened up a skydiving rig to change the risers. I have not jumped it in some time. This would have certainaly been a malfuntion had I jumped it. I am not sure this relates much to BASE though as this canopy is ZP stuffed into a container way to small for it. Shaking the canopy violently from the bridle it remained in a small "brick".
I had to peel every panel/fold apart from the adjacent material. Seperate material to open up the nose, peel open the slider ect. I realize that my Mojo is f111 and packed fairly loose into the container, but I have a new veiwpoint about jumping old packjobs.

Josh
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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>- Better quality canopy

Have any of the BASE manufactors opened their shops up to the FAA or any regulating agency and been forced to do drop tests of their canopies?



I believe that some CR gear was TSO'd in Germany a few years ago, as part of their legal BASE events (their parachute association required that TSO'd [or the german equivalent] gear be used).

Edit: Also, since CR canopies (made by PD) and Vertigo canopies (made by Precision) are made in the same shops that manufacture TSO'd reserves, I'd probably consider those shops "opened up to the FAA".
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I try to explain:
"forced to do drop tests of their canopies?"
So Tested canopies are better quality??

Do anyone know of a reserve with 700 openings??
How many times a new model reserve can be used?? (Funny to imagine someone with 100 Reserve rides...) The design issues of reserves also are different, pack volume, less expected openings, attachement points, ...
The rigs are also designed differently: AAD compatible, small pack volume, reserve Bag... where this at BASE is not an issue.

I think we are comparing apples with elephants ;-) anyway.

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I agree that there is a huge difference between skydiving reserves and BASE canopies. I was just trying to think outside the box a little bit and see if there was any studies (even informally) about opening vs length of time that its been packed.

I know of some old Ravens that have well over 700 openings, and my DZO is up to about 70 reserve rides so far :S
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Hi,
yes - we have made the german required drop tests for both, main and reserve system.
the reserves we use are no squares, we use round canopies in chest mounted containers.
now we have various containers and canopies we are allowed to jump legally (CR, BR, Atair,......)
B|
--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

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