trautmann 0 #1 December 29, 2003 In april 04 i'll come to florida for three weeks, do do much skydives. Also i want to buy a complete gear for me. i've 60 jumps and experience on nitro 150/135 (in us nitron) with WL 1.47 at the 135. i think i'm a safe skydiver, but i also want to have fun when flying the canopy. principal, the nitro is a nce canopy, but i don't like the recovery arc, it recovers to fast and you can't go long dives. i'm looking for a canopy where i can do swoops but i won't have an too aggressive that is to fast for me. i read a lot about sabre2, stilletto and samurai and i think one of them, size 135 or 150 will fit best for me. so i hope you can tell me a lot from your experience, that i will do a good decision. thanks, blue skies, manuel from austria _________________________________________ sorry for broken english, I'm Austrian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 December 29, 2003 Hey Manuel, I'm sure I won't be the only person to tell you this but 1.5 on a Nitro at 60 jumps is very aggressive. It's the kind of stat the we read in the Incidents forum. Please be careful, talk to your old instructors and experienced canopy pilots at your home dz. If you can, schedule a canopy control course whilst you're out in FL. In answer to your question: most people in your situation buy modestly loaded canopies in the Sabre/Spectre class. I had a Spectre 150 @ 1.2 and it was more than enough to keep me amused for 200-odd jumps. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trautmann 0 #3 December 29, 2003 thanks for your comment. i'd like to write a little bit more about me and skydiving: my last 12 jumps were on the nitro 135, my old instructor told me i should try. also he said that i've an special feeling for canopy control, maybe that depends on that i was motorcycle racing for 8 years, and speed is no problem in desicions for me. my feeling was also good on this canopy, i don't feel unsafe. i know about the accidents from parachutist, but i think most depends on how you are flying a canopy. i also talked with a czech competition flyer, who was long time on my DZ and knows very good my skills. he told me to try the 135 sabre2. to do a canopy control course is a good idea. i think i would try. blue skies manuel _________________________________________ sorry for broken english, I'm Austrian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrAvalanche 0 #4 December 29, 2003 Dude your loading your chute pretty heavily for your experience level. I'm not gonna tell you what to do. Even though you describe yourself as a safe and responsible skydiver you will make mistakes. And when you do you might just need the extra forgiveness a bigger chute gives you. I talk from experience. I considered me a very safe and sensible skydiver (still do though other may disagree ) But never the less I did something VERY, and I mean VERY, stupid on my jump #70. I walked away with a broken shoulder, but that was pure luck. I was very glad that I choose a bigger canopy (and for the fact that it had rained very heavily for a week so that the ground was nice and soft ) "We Are The Light At The End Of Your Sorry Little Tunnel" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #5 December 29, 2003 Do you know how many "safe and responsible" skydivers I've seen make very bad mistakes? Quite a few. Some have gotten lucky. The ones that did that under canopies loaded too high for their experience level...well...lets just say it hurts to see your friends seriously injured with the lives ruined or dead.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #6 December 29, 2003 If you're serious about learning to swoop.I seriously suggest you obtain a more forgiving canopy than the nitro..and get specialist canopy coaching. Note it's not the canopy that makes a good 'swoop' it's the person flying it... If you're going to Sabastian fl,see if you can hook up with Chris Lynch for coaching and advise.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #7 December 29, 2003 It's your body. I only got 81 jumps, about half of them on a Safire 149 @ 1.19. Been told I am (for my experience level) a good canopy pilot. After some 40 jumps on it I've hardly begun scratching at the envelope of this canopy - it'll last at least 300 jumps more for me. But a Nitro at 1:1.47 at 60 jumps? After 60 jumps you have nowhere near experienced most of the possible "oh shite" unexpected situations. Situations that might kill you if you're inexperienced under a highly loaded elliptical. I'm too inexperienced to give advice about canopies really. What I can say is that I've not experienced many of the unexpected situations under canopy yet - simply because of the laws of probability. Haven't been exposed to them long enough. So that's where my advice is coming from. A 1.47 WL on an ellipitical canopy at 60 jumps is not what I'd call "safe and responsible". Being extremely safety conscious and whatnot won't help you if you experience a chance "oh shite" situation that's outside of your skills. It's your call though. It just seems a bit gung ho and dangerous to me. Regarding swooping maybe I should add that I've seen instructors outswoop people with pocket rockets - with the instructor jumping an old and worn *big* 7 cell Spectre. Gear matters, but skill matters equally or more. Check out this clicky Can ya do what Billvon suggests? Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dubbayab 0 #8 December 29, 2003 Most Canopy Manufactures specify that any wing loading over 1.1/1 is advanced. In the US an advanced license or a D raiting will cost you 500 jumps. Don't be surprized if a DZO won't let you jump your highly loaded eliptical at there drop zone. It has happened to friends of mine when traveling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #9 December 29, 2003 Lets be fair. He's only got 60 jumps, but he's been racing motorcycles for EIGHT years. Thats got to be the equvilant of at least 4 skydives, maybe 5. Seriously, as far as productive comments go, there are very few that most aren't already thinking. Yes his wing loading is too high, and his canopy choice is poor for his experience level. Furthermore, his confidence will do him more harm than good. While the jumper himself probably won't listen to any advice, others can use this scenario as an indicator of what not to do, and how not to act. I wonder if he knows that a poorly executed 90 degree front riser hook (a fairly mild maunver by modern swooping standards) would be MUCH worse than a high-side coming into a 90 MPH corner on a race bike? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trautmann 0 #10 December 29, 2003 i think you can die in both situations. but it depends on the person if one of this situations happens. and i also know that skydiving is more dangerous than cookie backing on sunday morning. maybe it's better to talk with my instructor to get serious information. he knows how i'm flying and he knows me. thanks for you comments _________________________________________ sorry for broken english, I'm Austrian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trautmann 0 #11 December 29, 2003 hmm.... i had a bad line twist on nitro and my expirience is that this canopy isn't so aggressive. i won't become a swooping champion within the next 50 jumps, i'm only searching for a canopy that alows to swoop when i wish to do. _________________________________________ sorry for broken english, I'm Austrian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #12 December 29, 2003 OK, the reason that there are no retaining walls on motorcycle roadcourses (where they can help it) is so when you do high-side, you slide to a stop without hitting anything. In swooping, the ground is like an ever present retaining wall. Any mistake you make results in a blunt impact with the ground. Additionally, you are wearing far less protective gear while skydiving then racing. The point is that while you may have confidence from your racing experience, that experience has done nothing to delevop the correct reflex type responses to situations that can occur while swooping. Nothing but experience under canopy can help to develop those reflexes. This is why newer jumper will jump at a lower wing loading. The slower canopy will give them time to react to situations and make corrections BEFORE there is an incident. This experience will build the reflexes to handle a faster canopy. Even then, smart jumpers will only jump a newer, higher performance canopy in better than average conditions, allowing them to adapt to the faster canopy with some 'best case scenario' jumps. Hopefully, by the time they need to react in order to avoid injury, they have the reflex action built in, and are used to doing things at the faster pace of the new canopy. There was an incident a couple of months back in which a jumer about your size, and experience was jumping an eliptical canopy MUCH larger than the ones you are considering. Poor flight planning, or just bad luck put him in a position where had had to take action in order to avoid an obstacle. Under pressure, he over did the manuver, and hooked himself into the ground. Now he is dead, and he will never see his family again, and will never make another jump. His canopy was sold to him by an instructor rated jumper, who said he would be fine. Others told him he would not be fine, and, unfortunately, they were right. Use your head. Your instructor has already approved a canopy that many here (myself included) feel is too small, and too aggressive. The canopy manufacturer also agrees that the wing loading, and planform is not appropriate for your experience (according to their reccomendations). You mentioned some PD canopies. Call them up and see if they will send you a demo with your experience at the wing loading you are looking at. THE ANSWER WILL BE NO. FOR A REASON. You can look around untill you find someone who thinks what you are doing is OK, even though many are telling you it's not. I would venture a guess that if you end up in the hospital, the person who told you it would be OK will not show up for a visit. It always works that way. I wonder why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheMonkey 0 #13 December 29, 2003 Quotei had a bad line twist on nitro and my expirience is that this canopy isn't so aggressive a skygod you are....my suggestion would be something crossbraced and sub-100, you will definitely be able to swoop that (at least once).... --------------------- Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beej 0 #14 December 29, 2003 Quotei think you can die in both situations. but it depends on the person if one of this situations happens. and i also know that skydiving is more dangerous than cookie backing on sunday morning. maybe it's better to talk with my instructor to get serious information. he knows how i'm flying and he knows me. Sounds to me mein herr, that you do not want to hear/read the stark truth. What you want to hear is "cool, go for it". Be sensible my friend, or you will have femur fractures or worse, death. Good Luck. ---------------------------------------------------- If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #15 December 30, 2003 I'd reccommend asking your CCI or S&TA. It sounds like to me that your instructor is trying to kill you for some reason.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trautmann 0 #16 December 30, 2003 what i will read is your experience, but most comments sounds to me like i'm a big idiot. and this is really what i wont read to be cool i don't need a small canopy. is a sabre2 loaded with 1.25 really so unsafe for my level? be sure, i will be sensitive, otherwise i wouldn't ask for experience from other skydivers _________________________________________ sorry for broken english, I'm Austrian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #17 December 30, 2003 you've had a couple of instructors post to this thread... My personal observations: I've seen some instructors at perris swoop the heck out of canopies loaded at 1.1:1 what they told me about swooping (not that I want to do it anytime soon, I was just asking out of curiosity) was to learn on a larger canopy, because you're less likely to die that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #18 December 30, 2003 Please stay at < 1.0 for awhile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trautmann 0 #19 December 30, 2003 i took a look to my jumpbook: maybe the austrian education is different to the american, but i jumped WL 1.0 since my 16th dive. also my education needs more jumps than uspa license. here its very necessary to be a good canopy pilot, otherwise you don't get the licence. jump 31 - 45 WL1.25 on nitro jump 45 - 60 WL1.47 on nitro so, definetly WL 1.0 would be 2 steps back for me. i think i will speak to my instructors today. thanks for comments, blue skies manuel_________________________________________ sorry for broken english, I'm Austrian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trautmann 0 #20 December 30, 2003 Quote Check out this clicky Can ya do what Billvon suggests? very good link. i checked out, i did most of it, but never tried to flare with rear risers. 1.47 on nitro isn't like 1.47 on a sabre2 or equal canopy. nitro is produced in germany and they have a special method to measure the sqft of a canopy. maybe its part of marketing but a nitro 150 has the area of a 170sqft standard measured canopy. so when i calculate, i've jumped nitro on WL 1.17 and 1.33 blue skies _________________________________________ sorry for broken english, I'm Austrian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #21 December 30, 2003 Email the manufactor of the Nitro and ask them their opinion of you flying the canopy at your experience and your loading. And the canopy control requirements are almost identical in the US now. Jump requirements are also matched now. Most of BillVon's list is not all of it. My favorite trick is can you hit accuracy when you don't know where the target is till you are getting ready to land? Also how many times have you landed off and what were the landing area's like when or if you landed off?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #22 December 30, 2003 When you started this thread; your statement was, Quoteso i hope you can tell me a lot from your experience, that i will do a good decision. And the majority of responses have suggested you consider holding back for awhile before purchasing a new canopy. To virtually every response, you have responded with an objection or clarification or additional reasons why you should buy the smaller canopy. At every physical DZ and I guess now at the virtual DZ, there's always someone who asks for opinions about what they want to do. When they don't like the answer they get, they go around to everyone until they get the answer they want. When they don't get the answer they want from anyone, they re-position their query and start all over again. The last thing you posted said you would talk with your Instructors. That's the best thing you can do. They should be the ones assisting you. Good luck in your decision-making process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflajankie 0 #23 January 8, 2004 Ok man, You may think you are capable of controlling this canopy, and you say that you had a serius linetwist on the canopy, Was the canopy spinning or whas it just linetwists? When you have 60 jumps it might seem like a serius linetwists if you have a bunch of them, but as long as the canopy is flying straight you have no idea of what a serius linetwists are. If you check out Nitros website it says that this canopy is for Advanced and Expert skydivers, and lets face it, you are neither after all of your 60 jumps. Take a step back and think before you do something you might forget. Take the advice from all these people that this canopy is not for you yet...Skydivers are a bunch of insensitive jerks... And that's why I don't skydive anymore! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thomson 0 #24 February 11, 2004 You know what you are talking about man!!! So why did you start this thread???? You have racing expiriance on bikes and in cars and i heard from you teachers you are doing brilliant. With your high Level 60 Jumps:-))))))). Others will need500 or more to be at the same level like you :-)))))) Buy yourself something fast!!! Go for a Velocity 79 from PD. That will be a nice one for your line twists resulting from unstable pulls you do!!! Let me know if you like the Canopy!!-------------------------------------------------- I LOVE THE CUTAWAY HANDLE OF TONYS VECTOR! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chester 0 #25 February 12, 2004 Look I`m not an experience jumper and it hapen that I aske the same question to my instructor and to our dz rigger, I have an exit weight of about 225 or 230 pounds and they told me I am a natural jumper everything seem easy for me, dont know wy but...So, they said " you can jump a 150 if you want as long as you dont do anything stupid under it." if you do the math it is 1.5 wl. My point here is, experience jumper does not always mean good advice.Since then I have listen the advice I have receive from people here on this forum and I am now looking for something around 210 and not eleptical. And by the way I am a byke racer to both road and motocross, and you will not make me beleive it can help you under a canopy. So before you start to think you are a sky god you should start to walk before runing if you want to stay alive. Good luck. J-S ---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
