Where do you put the less skilled flyers in a flock?

[kallend 1,623]

Following up from the incidents forum.

And for the sake of discussion lets assume the folks with lesser skills are still considered safe enough to be around in the air.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[dirtbox 0]

At the front. When I was brought into bigger wing suit dives I had proven I could A fly in control next to other people people and B good judgment when a formation changed. From there I started in the second row or third row on the edges (at this point it is like flying in a tight 5 way or 7 way, the 15+ others don't really enter your mind, even with break off you stay in the front team and break off from them like a normal smaller way) before moving further back and toward the centre and then eventually ended up being out late on multi plane dives - the back of a big way or multi plane dive is chaos at best.

If a newbie missies their slot at the front they don't kill anyone they just miss their slot (so you might not for 'the' formation but you don't kill anyone), experienced fliers are safer when it comes to diving at and moving through traffic.

With tracking I have heard both, put them at the front and out them in at the back chasing. Having watched what happened and now being in a place where I organize bigger tracking dives newbs go at the front and I adjust the fall rate as much as possible to help them while letting the experienced trackers move through them.

Bottom line if you don't have the skills to be on the dive don't be on the dive. Start at the front on the edges, moving back through the centre finally to the 'glory' slot of last out closing the diamond or whatever. Also realize that some jumps are just jumps for very experienced fliers and not everyone can be one them but those types of advanced dives will still be there when you have the skills to be on them.

my 2 cents

[hjumper33 0]

The sides. The scariest time is when someone goes low, and then is trying to get back up and flares into someone else. If you put the less experiences on the outsides, they can go outside farther, pop up, and reenter the flock. I think having people in the front and low is scary. Back or sides, but the point made that if you cant do the jump, dont be on the jump. Ed probably is one of the best people to ask as there was a lot of newbies on bigger flocks at lodi.

[WickedWingsuits 0]

This is a good conversation, it has me thinking for sure and that's a good thing.

One of the problems with organizing on the road is that not everyone is a "known entity".

Take a common scenario where you are at an event and have a 6 way flying nicely and then someone with "50" Wingsuit jumps turns up. I think the options are:

- turn the guy away
- break up the group
- take the guy out for a 2 way
- put them in the formation

If the choice is made to put them in the formation I would put them at the back and make it clear the objective isn't to get there at all costs but to fly relative to the group. That way if I am flying video I can observe them.

In my mind putting them up front can cause chaos for more folks and increases the risk.

Is it right? I don't know, sometimes you make decisions that turn out to be wrong and you have to adjust based on the specifics. I don't want an over amped pilot anywhere in a formation that's for sure.

There might not be a right generic answer. It "depends". At the end of the day it is about minimizing accidents and fatalities. If anyone thinks you can get in the air with other people and reduce the risk to zero then they are the most dangerous person in the group.

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[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

The sides. The scariest time is when someone goes low, and then is trying to get back up and flares into someone else. If you put the less experiences on the outsides, they can go outside farther, pop up, and reenter the flock. I think having people in the front and low is scary. Back or sides, but the point made that if you cant do the jump, dont be on the jump. Ed probably is one of the best people to ask as there was a lot of newbies on bigger flocks at lodi.

This is a good post. ASSUMING the person is qualified to be on a flock at all, then I will generally place them far enough back that they have a solidly-built formation to approach without wondering "where is the base?" If the formation is diamond or arrow-shaped I will put them on the outside where a bit of washing around will not hinder the others in the core of the formation. On larger flocks I will not place them far from the base and force them to stuka dive through traffic and potentially pile into people.

Chuck

[mccordia 73]

I would never let anyone with low experience come allong on a flock, without a prior evaluation jump. Regardless of this evaluation being done by watching video, sending him up on a 2 way with someone else, or doing a jump with said person yourself.

The fact that you're at a boogie, and there is no time/oppertunity to do a check up on a persons skills, should never be a reason to just throw them into a flock. Even in a chasing slot, they can do a lot of damage if they are not skilled, and (most important) not briefed on every aspect of their exit, approach and flying 'what if's in case the go low or get in front of the group.

In general I prefer to have people with less experience (who worked their way up to said dive number progressivly over smaller flocks first) close to the base in exit, so they dont have to do a long/agressive dive. And than have them on a slot in the back of the group position wise.

And important part of the briefing I always add is, that the approach is what they are practicing. And not actually trying to fly a slot or 'get there'
Installing the idea that the path to getting to a slot is what they are training on a jump, and doing that part fully in control and learning there is the goal, takes away the mindset that they need to be quick, and dive like a bat out of hell to get to 'their slot'. Regardless of it being in the middle or back of a group.

But taking a hint from freefly and FS. How many 10, 15, 20 way groups do you see going up doing a slotted formation, where they just tell a beginner with 15, 20, 50 jumps in the discipline to 'just follow us out'.
Perhaps worth applying that same mindset to 'our discipline' and than (if you truly care about someone and their flying) take the time to get out of a group and work on skills with them in smaller 2 to 4 ways. Instead of acting like having them tag allong a big group is the only option.

In FS, even with the added tunnel and freefly coaching, its rare to see someone in organized 15 to 20 ways at sub 50 jumps in their discipline. Just because people are impatient to, doesnt mean they should be in big groups. A focus on 2 way, some light acro, docks etc and coupling people and just giving them assignments per jump, and tell them to come to you to debrief after (I usually do that) while you do big groups, is probably the best thing to do.

And (like someone said at some point) if you dont feel safe having a beginner take out a solo or 2 way before or after a group, they probably shouldnt be in the plane at all. As thats pure wingsuit basics.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[kallend 1,623]

Thanks for the safety lecture, but "for the sake of discussion lets assume the folks with lesser skills are still considered safe enough to be around in the air."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

The sides. The scariest time is when someone goes low, and then is trying to get back up and flares into someone else. If you put the less experiences on the outsides, they can go outside farther, pop up, and reenter the flock. I think having people in the front and low is scary. Back or sides, but the point made that if you cant do the jump, dont be on the jump. Ed probably is one of the best people to ask as there was a lot of newbies on bigger flocks at lodi.

This is a good post. ASSUMING the person is qualified to be on a flock at all, then I will generally place them far enough back that they have a solidly-built formation to approach without wondering "where is the base?" If the formation is diamond or arrow-shaped I will put them on the outside where a bit of washing around will not hinder the others in the core of the formation. On larger flocks I will not place them far from the base and force them to stuka dive through traffic and potentially pile into people.

Chuck

What would you think about having them make a floater exit, so as to be near the base from the outset? Would this be better than having them dive out? Is having them dive out a recipe for hurrying and possibly opening their wings too soon?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[WickedWingsuits 0]

I can see how putting someone out earlier reduces the concern over an aggressive dive. In my example of a 6 way the dive shouldn't be crazy. Of course even a floater can have a bad exit and then end up in a dive.


I don't think anyone here is making a case for putting a novice into a big group.

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[DSE 3]

I don't put new flyers in large flocks.
I do put new flyers as floaters so they're near the base (typically right side of base) on a 4-5 way. Having an experienced person in the back provides 'herding' ability and an experienced eye observing for the debrief of the group.
As relates to the Australian fatality, this person would not have been in the formation, let alone as one of the last people out of the aircraft.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

I don't put new flyers in large flocks.
I do put new flyers as floaters so they're near the base (typically right side of base) on a 4-5 way. Having an experienced person in the back provides 'herding' ability and an experienced eye observing for the debrief of the group.
As relates to the Australian fatality, this person would not have been in the formation, let alone as one of the last people out of the aircraft.

There is already a thread on the Australian fatality. The purpose of this was to start a generic discussion on how to introduce apparently well qualified flyers to flocks.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[hjumper33 0]

I personally found learning to flock at the lodi bigways of 7-8 years ago that getting out last was nice because you could see everyone, and just slowly make your way down. I think its fine to not give a super specific slot towards the back and then let them slowly come in over the course of the dive to get a feel of control durig flocks. Putting someone in the front runs the danger of a sudden move, and then everyone else having to react to that move instead of letting them do their thing at the back. Its always a nice option for a newby to have at the back of a flock to just say, if stuff goes wrong, or you dont feel comfortable, turn away and get out of there.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

@ Kallend: Yes, I'm all for putting lower-experienced guys out as floaters, but I really think it's important that they have a tight, distinguishable base to locate very quickly.