ArizonaStone

I received my A-license from SDAZ and I never had to repeat a level. The reason I say this is because someone else said that your jumps have to be perfect and I don’t believe that to be true. I saw a few people having to repeat jumps, but they would just freak out or freeze up after leaving the plane. The instructors are some of the best…when you can get their attention. I did my A in 2 weeks and during the week it wasn’t so bad, but around the weekends, the tandems (SDAZ is a tandem factory) took priority. Debriefs were a joke when competing for attention with the tandems. The ladies at the counter (professional and friendly) said that I would get a video debrief of every jump, I just wouldn’t get the video as I hadn’t paid for it. Fair enough. Out of 25 jumps, I got a video debrief maybe 40% of those jumps. Also, when comparing the prices to Skydive the Farm and other well-known but smaller dropzones, SDAZ is expensive. For the price I paid for my A (with no repeat jumps), I could have bought a plane ticket to Georgia or Florida, got my A, and still had $500-$1000 left over. I guess I am just a bit lazy. My advice, go somewhere else for your A. I received my B at SDAZ as well and that went off without a hitch. The facilities of SDAZ have all you need to make your jumping dreams come true and provide you with the basic necessities of life. Just bring clothes and toilet stuff and you’re set if you want to do nothing other than skydive. The packing area is pretty good. The rigging loft, I cannot really comment on as I only ever had a closing loop changed there. The food at the Bent Prop is decent and will do you just fine for a week or two, beyond that and it can get old. The bar is decent when you are not competing for the bartender’s attention when the local skygods come in. The bunkhouse is as bad as a Motel 6 near the red light district. If you get hammered at the bar, it will do; beyond that, kick up the cash and stay somewhere where the beds don’t reek of sweat. The gear shop is pretty sweet. The staff there when I jumped were cool. Some people that have worked there though forget who the customer is. The tunnel is awesome, but make sure you have a reservation. Time slots can fill up quick and if the military is there training, they can take up huge blocks of time. The good news is, they are open before the sun rises and open well after it sets. The instructors are excellent at tunnel flying and very good when instructing. There are numerous instructors around the DZ. Nick and Brianne are the best in my opinion. They are competent, professional, and flexible on scheduling. SDAZ has decent load organizers and more of them if you are a freeflier; bellyfliers can get neglected at times. Ahh, onto my major grievance about SDAZ…if you are a badass flier, you’re good; if you’re not, you better start shelling out a lot of money or a lot of ass (for females) for training or you will find yourself on the fringe very quickly. I jumped at SDAZ for 2 years and never felt as welcome as I did over 1 week at Lake Elsinore. Freefliers, and very good ones at that, run rampant and if you are one, you will be at home. If you are starting out or just into bellyflying or fun jumping in general, SDAZ can be a bore. That’s not to say there are none of the latter, but your options are limited. I know some will say that SDAZ is a training DZ and Elsinore is a beginner’s DZ, but that doesn’t make it any less of what it is when it comes to the vibe. I understand that a guy or gal with 1000s of jumps may not be that intrigued by a 4-way with people that only have a few hundred jumps, but it is what it is. Also, wingsuiting and canopy work are underrepresented and that can be a drag when you want to try something new. Some of the ground crew can really restrict you to just falling in a column from altitude; take it or leave it. They claims it’s due to all of the air traffic, but it is just inflexible when you want to do something other than turn points. Overall, it is a good DZ; just in small doses. You have to decide why you want to go and how long you can tolerate being all about SDAZ’s business. Also, the cliques don’t stop at jumping, it carries over into afterhours shenanigans as well. If you’re not in on the jumps, you’re also not likely to be in on the party either.

I had no idea that there were these issues with the BOD. Does the military do reports on non-military incidents as a practice or just in certain circumstances like when they're involved in studies such as the Dual Square Report? Also, Pops, this wasn't meant to be a political discussion, just an inquiry into why there appears to be such a fair amount of reporting from some DZs and little, if any, from others. P.S. When I said "regulates", I mean to the extent that the BSRs are regulation. Not necessarily in the FAR sense of the word. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Call me ignorant, but why would the BOD purposely destroy the sport that it regulates by doing such a thing? "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

I suppose, but does Parachutist share an equally tarnished reputation for misinformation? "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Hey guys! Maybe this is the wrong forum to post this, but it seemed to be the most fitting. I jump at a fairly large dropzone that has a lot of military training going on throughout the year. In the time I have been jumping there, I have heard of a few incidents and witnessed a few as well. My question is, why do I see and hear about these things, yet I never see them reported here or in Parachutist? Can anyone offer some insight on why this is so? "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

I agree on the work aspect Peek. I try to exert a certain amount of diligence in my responses to posts. If everybody exercised the same discipline, DZ.com would be awesome. Discussing incidents is a good thing also. The thing I notice though is that one-on-one discussions go good, but when the general populace starts commenting on a topic, things degrade. I understand that everybody is different and some people are smarter than others, but I think we owe it ourselves to regulate the discussions better. This is probably the internet's only real hub of skydiving discussion. We should strive to make it at as awesome as the sport we participate in. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

The best info I think you're going to find is the PIA "Dual Square Report". Google it. If you can't find it that way, I believe Performance Designs has it on their website. Also, the March 2012 issue of Parachutist has an article on two out malfunctions (Is it really a malfunction or just a problem?). EDIT: I don't want to get flamed soooo, after going back through these posts, I would also suggest talking to an instructor. As this is a forum and you are not likely at the DZ, the above mentioned reading materials should get you the answers you need. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Shah- I have never had 6 months off, only 1.5 months at one point, but I just went out and jumped. I was nervous since I was around the 50-60 jump area, but I just did it. My landing was actually better than I expected. So, like one person suggested, go up in canopy size. And like Nike says, just do it. It's not that bad. Remember what you have to do. Walk it through in your midn and I'm sure you'll be okay. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

I have talked with many a talented skydiver in person about DZ.com and the overwhelming consensus I get is that DZ.com is good for the classifieds and that's about it. I don't always feel the same way, but I have noticed a certain pissiness (as one poster points out) that is common in a lot of threads here and a certain degree of misinformation. I don't understand why skydivers who are around other skydivers when they skydive and experience this sport and all it's ins and outs, get home and jump on DZ.com and somehow forget all they have learned in the real world and start talking shit on these forums. To respond to the issue, I have the following thought. Skydiving is a physical activity. There is a body of knowledge that surrounds the gear that can be learned in forums such as this and books, videos, etc. There is also a body of knowledge that pertains to the physical act of skydiving. This point is harder to discuss and easier to show/do. Perhaps we are trying to over-discuss an activity which lends itself better to doing, than discussing. So, in an attempt to get our "fix" when we are away from the DZ, maybe we spout off dumb questions and dumb responses due to a lack of anything better to say. If I am correct, the only solutions are to tolerate the silliness that occurs during our jumpless days, stop talking the shit out of this one activity, OR start offering up some truly useful threads that answer questions and show a genuine interest in the development of the sport. Flame away if you please. EDIT: For the newbies that ask the redundant questions, maybe we could politely suggest using the search engine and leave it at that. If the newbie offers something insightful that the DZ.com skygods haven't seen before, then try responding in a helpful or interested way. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

I couldn't agree with you more Kennedy. Liberals like Amazon are just as closed minded as the conservatives they claim are the problem. They hide behind political correctness, exaggeration, and misdirection. They are quick to point out faults, but offer no true solutions. They try to be everybody's buddy in an effort to look like the good guys. "Oh, it's those awful conservatives telling everybody no! We never say no. We're liberal. We're progressive." They frequently exaggerate what they see when it doesn't fit into their narrow view of life. Take the UC Davis incident. "They were holding kids down and spraying OC down their throats." Illegal aliens! I think not! Just ask a liberal; they're undocumented workers. Misdirection. A major pet peeve of mine is the improper association of the word "progressive" with "liberalism". Not that a liberal can't be progressive, but it seems that the two words are used synonymously. Amazon, before you get your panties in a bunch, I will say that conservatives are not without flaw. I belong to neither group. I believe that being too polarized clouds one's ability to see a situation clearly. There are times to be compassionate and there are times for a little tough love. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Thanks for the debate guys. It was enjoyable. Until next time. Good night! "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Please read the link below before directing more questions at me regarding chemical agents and the context in which I was speaking. http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/agentlistchem-category.asp#riotcontrol "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

I see the cop with the can of OC pulling people apart. Was he supposed to drop the can on the ground before pulling the people apart? No, of course not. You never drop your weapon on the ground, especially not near someone who is likely to use it on you. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Nothing changes because a person is a cop, but it is much more likely that your are being the instigator in a situation where a cop has chosen to approach you. If you in fact have a cop who is deliberately harassing you, then I would recommend that you report him. Believe it or not, the good ole boy club is not as strong anymore with the ACLU and video phones running around. I have a hard time seeing a cop walk up to you and just start mouthing off. Unless what you consider mouthing off to be a lawful order directed at you by a law enforcement officer. I think you were reaching with this one. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Technically, yes, OC is a chemical. That would be the equivalent, however, of saying that someone who throws water in your face attacked you with the chemical agent, Dihydrogen Oxide. Consider the context and the usage of words when referring to certain topics. OC is not CN or CS. OC is a naturally occurring compound and is not a chemical in the usage that we are referring to. He is referring to Mace. Mace has been banned by law enforcement use as it is a chemical compound that does cause lasting damage in some cases, hence, the ban on its use by LEOs. You are twisting words now Momma. I didn't say being a dick is legal justification for a beat down. Perhaps that is your bias kicking in. I have a lot of people who are dicks to me, I smile and they are on their way. It's part of the job. If that dick decides he wants to escalate the situation, well, he get what he has coming to him. If you force me to take you down, in whatever level of force that may be required, don't expect me to be gentle about it. If I am within policy, then I am justified in the level of force I used. If you get off easy in my application of that force, lucky you; if you get hurt more than the last guy that escalated a situation to that level, well, you asked for it. I know what is and isn't part of my job Mr. Armchair Quarterback. If you think any kind of "knowing what the job entails" before signing up prepares you for the reality, you are misinformed. Whether it be law enforcement or the military, not even training prepares you 100% for reality. I'm pretty sure by your statements, you have never served this country that you see so fit to dismantle with your vitriol. Yet, you sit in judgement as though you have first hand experience. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Lurch, They are not kids. They are adults. If being in your 20s is considered a kid in America, we need to grow up. Pepper spray (oleoresin capsicum) is NOT a chemical agent. It is derived from peppers. You know, the same stuff that makes your mouth burn when you eat jalepenos. It is suspended in water by propylene glycol, the same stuff in your lotion. You really should get your facts straight before stating a position which you are not prepared to defend properly. It is this ignorance of facts that has college "kids" defending a position of which they have no true understanding and getting pepper sprayed in the process. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Jgoose, Your words are music to my ears. I am not a conservative though. I think we should all be moderate libertarians. Most people are 'middle-of-the-road' types in their personal lives. Why can't politics be the same? "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Lurch, To your post I must respond. I thank you for being an upstanding citizen. People like you are not viewed as making our jobs easy, but as decent people. It's not whether our job is made easy or not, but whether the justification for being an asshole on the citizens behalf is warranted. If a cop approaches you and he is out-of-line, then you are justified in treating him as such. If a person is out-of-line, as defined by the law, the he is treated as such. I have been in many situastions with hardened criminals, that have shown more respect for me and my fellow officers than some average citizens. So, if a guy who has done a stretch for assault, multiple burglaries, drug abuse, etc and was beaten and sexually abused by his parents can be respectful, not a kiss ass douche bag, but respectful, then why is it so hard for the average citizen to do the same. That's all I'm saying. As far as the words you quote, I quote: “Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.” - Benjamin Franklin "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

You still throw stones Amazon, but you fail to offer a better solution. Much like the Occupy protestors. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

One last thought before I abandon this debate. Before I make a determination if something is right or wrong, I try to look at it from all angles. I like to take all things to a personal level. In this case, imagine if you did something that people in your neighborhood were displeased with. Imagine that it was something that you believed to be reasonable by your standards. Then, imagine if your neighbors circled your house and protested. You couldn't go to any portion of your yard without being harassed by protestors. You couldn't drive out of your driveway. You could hear them in your house, day and night. Would you call the police? What if the police couldn't make them move with verbal commands? What then would you suggest the police do? How long could you hold out and allow your peace to be disrupted before you lashed out? "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

How about standing back and just laughing at the stupid fuckers, it would make more of an impression on them.. ----------------- You see, sitting back is not what an American does. If we all sat back, then we'd be back in England laughing as the Crown stripped us of our liberties and dignity. Secondly, if the protestors disrupted the flow of peoples daily activities or the operation of the university, then sitting back is not an option as the protest is no longer peaceful. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Cat got your tongue? It's very, very easy to sit in your home and say, oh my, that's terrible. It's a completely different thing to create something better. Many very intelligent people, more intelligent than myself and likely many people here on Dropzone, have spent years trying to make something better. This is what we have as a civilization with all those brain cells firing away. Please, offer a better solution. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Amazon, please suggest a better way of maintaining order than what we have in America. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

Life sucks and it's not fair to everyone all the time. If you think a society can thrive on disorder and people will be respectful of others without oversight, then you are mistaken my friend. Some people have it easy, some have it hard. Accept your lot in life. Yin and yang. Balance. We can't all have it easy. That disrupts the balance of life. Things must die for others to live. Everything has an opposite. It is the way of life. We don't expect people to be happy, happy, joy, joy. If the Occupy people were in their designated areas to protest, their location wouldn't have been an issue. On to your remark. If someone has it hard and can't make ends meet, then is it okay if they break into your home? Rob your niece? Rape your wife? Murder you? We all have issues, but you can't infringe on others enjoyment of life. Police have many policies they must follow. Those policies are thought through very carefully to take many things into consideration. They attempt to strike the best balance between individual liberties and doing what needs to be done to maintain peace to uphold those liberties. Again, no governmental system is perfect. "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin

First, that was not bad at all. The students were likely asked to move from the passageway they were blocking. Pepper spraying passively resistant people is fairly standard. The alternative would have been to go hands-on; not physically assaulting them, but pulling them apart or pushing, etc. That of course would have been perceived by the masses as police brutality. Secondly, Americans are pussies. They see a cop on the street and are like, OH MY GOD! WE LIVE IN A POLICE STATE! Americans don't know shit about police states. Americans bitch and bitch and bitch about the government when they are doing their jobs. The government lays off. Something happens, then Americans bitch, where is the government when we need them? It's not a perfect system. For all the civilians that seem to think they now better, stop bitching and create a better system. It's not as easy as you think. I am law enforcement and I am not always pro-government, but stop being such a bunch of pussies. If you people knew the shit we have to put up with on a daily basis, you would have an appreciation for why most cops are dicks. I will say, some were dicks before they became cops, but there are a lot who become dicks because of ignorant citizens seeing videos like this and then trying to play armchair quarterback. So, I say, unless you want to do the job, shut the fuck up! "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." -Benjamin Franklin