Sluggo_Monster

mark, Actually he was moving faster than that, closer to 3 miles a minute. Your point is well taken, but, this was no precision DZ landing (or whatever you guys call it). The significance of the landing strip (not really an airport) is: The terrain is flat and level with minimum obstructions. That’s all I am inferring. In 1971 it was not anything like the terrain the FBI was pushing off on the situation when they insisted he jumped near Ariel. It was mostly small farms and open pasture. A standard rate turn of 27 degrees would take about 10 sec. So exactly when he made the determination that the second turn was in progress is a moot point. I won’t (actually I can’t) address the pre-jump aspects of his exit. You are right every 20 seconds past the decision to jump now is 1 mile further away. But, I do know it was: Fly Straight, turn left, fly straight, turn right, jump. If the pilot started the turn 1 mile away, and it took him 10 seconds to exit, he was within 0.5 miles of the VOR. You can fill in the other scenarios; he’s got a few minutes until he reached a populated area or the river. The post-jump aspects were discussed in depth in the old thread. He might have landed 5 miles away from the jump point. The only point I am trying to make is: I want to refute the FBI’s (Ckret’s) assertion that "Cooper had little idea where he was when he jumped". Everything else is just speculation and I like to speculate as much as everyone. Like this; “At 10,000 MSL, with the aft stairs down, and if he was halfway down the stairs, he could see the lights of Merwin Dam”. That’s just speculation. But, when I say; “he knew that V-23 was the only viable airway (based on his demands), and he knew when the plane passed the MALAY Fix and the BTG VOR”, then that’s speculation of a different order. I’ll tell you one thing; I’d give just about anything to test my speculation.

I think you guys are missing something; SEA-TAC Heading 178° [Enroute L-1] MCKEN Heading 178° [Enroute L-1] MALAY Turn to Heading 150.93°(27.07° Left) [Enroute L-1] BTG VORTAC Turn to Heading 175° (24.07° Right) [Enroute L-1] Those two turns (27.07° and 24.07°) can be easily seen on even a cheap compass. Maybe not accurately enough for navigation, but enough to do what your body won't (sense the turns). He knows he's on V-23 (previous long post) so all he has to do is wait for the second turn and then jump. To me, the key is: He knew he was on V-23. Then all he had to do was wait for the turns. My long post explains why (I think) he knew he would only be on V-23. I get the feeling that I'm not coming through clearly. Keep asking questions. The Chart to look at is Enroute L-1, mabe I can post a copy later. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Here are two more ariel photos: The B&W was taken 07/15/1990, it looks like it was maybe an ultra-lite field but it could be a farm strip (1100 feet). The color was taken 05-21-2005 (I believe) it was sometime near there (I'll have to dig out the correct date). See what I mean? Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Okay, you went further than I was willing to go until I could get folks to accept the assertions in my previous post. So, now that you have let the cat out of the bag.... here goes: In 1971 there was a small (about 1100 ft) grass airstrip 0.9 statute miles NE of the Battle Ground VORTAC. Do you want me to prove it? Park car--> Get friend or Taxi-->Go to PDX--> Do the deed--> Jump at BTG VOR--> walk .25 to 2.0 miles to car-->Drive into history--> Who knows? See Attached Map: The Communications Tower is the BTG VORTAC the landing strip is .855 miles NNE. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

In Forums: Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia: D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking (the old thread), I asked (in post # 1467): Ckret, I’m doing some research, and there is something I need to know. Did Cooper request V-23 or did the pilot(s) select V-23? I have seen so much stuff (mostly on the Internet) in the last 20 years that either downright state that Cooper requested/demanded V-23 or implies it. I’ve also seen information that says the pilots selected V-23 because of the low altitude demanded by Cooper and the original destination demand (Mexico). Also, did he state a location in Mexico in his “Fly this plane to _____” demand? Ckret responded in Post #1473: Neither requested Victor 23. The pilots and NWA flight operations wanted to fly out to the coast and where waiting for clearance to do so. It was not until just before takeoff that they were cleared through Sacramento via Victor 23. Cooper originally stated they could land anywhere in Mexico but after discussion he agreed to Reno. Of course we know now Cooper could have cared less because he wasn't going to be on the plane anywhere near any of those locations. Also, in Post #1607 Ckret said: Cooper never requested a flight path, he never requested an update from the flight crew and no one reported he even had on a watch that he could have timed wheels up. Also, V 23 is not the only low altitude route south from Seatac. Conclusion, Cooper had little idea where he was when he jumped. I have been doing some research (for about 3 weeks) and I am ready to state “Cooper knew EXACTLY where he was when he jumped”. It may (at first glance) appear that he made no demands on the pilots or flight operations, but actually he did. But, he did it in the way a magician uses re-direction to make a person (victim) think he/she has made a “free-will” choice, but instead is “forced into the choice” that the magician wants. I have a large amount of data to back up my assertions, but I will only post what the members of this board want to see. So, if you need proof, ask for it. Otherwise, I assume that you will accept that I have carefully considered my position on this. This will keep me from clogging the board with maps and Microsoft Word documents that most people are not interested in. Here’s what I have done, and some of my assertions: Cooper’s Demands: Cooper told the flight crew he had a bomb and showed them something that made them believe it was true. He asked to be flown to Mexico (with no particular destination). This has been interpreted by most to be an “un-demand", but remember this fact: All of Mexico is East of SEA-TAC. I will rephrase this to put it in a better context for this discussion. There is NO PART of Mexico that is West of SEA-TAC. Therefore the nearest destination that is in Mexico is the Gen Abelardo L. Rodriguez International Airport just across the border from Brown Field Municipal Airport in Chula Vista, California. He demanded an unusual (for a cross country flight) configuration that would limit range before refueling (due to a fuel burn that was 2.2 times greater than normal) and what terrain the plane could fly over. Such as flaps at 15 deg, airspeed less that 200 statute mph, aft stairs lowered, and DO NOT EXCEED 10,000 feet MSL). Available Routes (See Attached file “Four-Low-Altitude-Routes-ANN RED”: As Ckret says V-23 is not the only low-level Victor Airway South from SEA-TAC. Yes there is one other V-27 (the coastal route), and if you choose to go East then South there are two more. I will list all the available routes and some characteristics of each (below I have given them the #s 1 – 4 for convenience): NOTE: MEA = Minimum Enroute Altitude; MOCA = Minimum Obstruction Clearance Altitude; and OROCA = Off Route Obstruction Clearance Altitude. The least important of these is OROCA because it is only an issue if you are off the Victor Airway. DATA For Victor Two-Seven (Route #1) Total Track Length is 1243 Statute Miles. Highest MEA is 8000 feet Mean Sea Level (MSL) Highest MOCA is 5200 feet MSL. Highest OROCA is 11,100. DATA For Victor Two-Three (Route #2) Total Track Length is 1114 Statute Miles. Highest MEA is 10,000 feet Mean Sea Level (MSL) Highest MOCA is 9400 feet MSL. Highest OROCA is 16,300. DATA For Victor Four and Victor Two-Five (Route #3) Total Track Length is 1220 Statute Miles. Highest MEA is 12,000 feet Mean Sea Level (MSL) Highest MOCA is 9600 feet MSL. Highest OROCA is 16,700. DATA For Victor Four, Two-One, and Two-Three (Route #4) Total Track Length is 1414 Statute Miles. Highest MEA is 10,300 feet Mean Sea Level (MSL) Highest MOCA is 9000 feet MSL. Highest OROCA is 16,700. Eliminating Routes: Routes #3 and #4 can be eliminated without further discussion because the track length is long and (more importantly) the MEA is over 10,000 ft MSL. If you have a crazy man in the cabin, he says he has a bomb, and you believe him, you aren’t going to travel at an altitude higher than he specifies (the bomb may explode at higher than 10,000 ft), plus, you have the aft stairs open (unpressurized) so you need to be on oxygen at above 10,000. That leaves Victor Two-Seven and Victor Two-Three. Victor Two-Seven looks the best with regard to altitude, but there are two problems with it. First, it is 129 statute miles longer (I think over-water flight requires 1 hour reserve fuel rather than the standard 30 min, but I didn’t include this in my calculations due to uncertainty). Also, you lose a “degree of freedom” by flying on the coast. In other words, in an emergency you can only go east to find an emergency landing site (on land) and surely a nut-case with a bomb might precipitate an emergency. That leaves Victor 23 as the only “real choice”. Cooper knew that given the parameters for flight the only viable Victor Airway Southeast (Remember Mexico is Southeast of SEA-TAC) was V-23. So, even thought Ckret is right to say “Cooper never requested a flight path” he is wrong in his assumption; “Cooper had little idea where he was when he jumped”. The flight parameters Cooper gave the crew when he requested the vague destination of “Mexico” guaranteed they would take V-23. When the plan changed to Reno as a re-fuel destination, it fit right into V-23 as the only route. Could the flight have been vectored by the FAA instead of following the Victor airways? Yes, of course, but, if you were going to direct a 727 flying at 10,000 feet, with the aft stairs down, flaps at 15 deg, and flying just above stall-speed, are you going to “wing it” or follow an established route that is cleared for low-altitude IFR flight. So, now he knows he is going to be following V-23. All he needs is (even a cheap) compass. The plane leaves SEATAC flying a heading of 178 deg. It maintains that heading until the MALAY Fix, where it turns 27 deg left (his body may not sense it, but the compass will). Then the flight proceeds to the Battle Ground VORTAC (BTG) where it turns back right 24 deg. Now he jumps into the flat, farmlands, and he knows exactly where he his, whether he can see objects on the ground or not. Please give me critical feedback. Especially if you are an FAR Part 121 (Passenger Carrying) Pilot and/or flew in the PAC NW in the 60s and 70s. I don’t want to be right only in my mind; I want to be right beyond all doubt. If I can get critical feedback and refine the (considerable) work I’ve done on this, then we can “put to bed” the notion that Cooper didn’t know where he was when he jumped. It doesn’t address all those other issues, but establishes a foundation for understanding exactly where he jumped. Thanks for your patience with this long post, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I’m sure you’ve heard the old joke: Q: What’s the crew compliment for the Boeing 757/767? A: Two… the Captain and a Doberman. The Captain is just there to feed the Doberman. Q: Then what’s the Doberman for? A: To keep the Captain from touching the controls! Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

This is shamefully off-topic, but, please indulge me, just this once. First, I am a big NASCAR fan, and secondly, (after 377 suggested I do an AFF) I have been perusing the forums on skydiver.com to just try to learn about skydiving and skydivers. I knew a little because I had a friend and co-worker (at a previous job) who jumps (his home DZ is Richland Skysports in Richland, WA). But, I wanted to really “get inside your heads”. I spent almost a day reading forum posts and I learned a lot about the skydiving community. So, today I’m catching up on the pre-Daytona 500 news and I ran across this article: Vickers skydives: #83-Red Bull Racing driver Brian Vickers completed his first skydiving jump - Solo - yesterday under the guidance of the Red Bull Air Force, a group of air savvy professionals who specialize in skydiving. Vickers spent the first half of his day at Skyventure Orlando in a skydiving wind tunnel with the RBAF simulating the motions he'd feel in the sky and taking an Accelerated Free Fall (AFF) class that allowed him to complete his skydiving mission solo - not tandem, like most first time jumpers. Vickers jumped at Skydive Deland. (TRB PR)(2-13-2008) Well, I guess an adrenaline junkie is an adrenaline junkie no matter how you get your fix. I guess we all have (at least that) in common. When 377 suggested I do an AFF, I thought he was referencing a "tandem jump". I never dreamed that you could do a solo free-fall on your first jump! Cheers, Sluggo_Monster A.K.A. Sluggo and Wonder Warthog Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Based on a PM I got, I started thinking; “exactly what was the terrain like along the flight path? And, how can it be best represented?” So, I have produced a profile of the track that I think Flight 305 took that night. It is the centerline of Victor 23. It’s designed to be interactive, so it doesn’t translate to a still image very well. The vertical scale is 0 to 2500 feet. So the peaks are way out of proportion to the ground track. It begins at SEA-TAC on the left and ends at the RAWER Fix just south of Portland. The red crosshatched areas are maps that are off the disk (I haven’t figured out how to merge two disks yet), but that is south of the area of interest for most folks. Goble Mountain and Schumaker Mountain are flagged. The high peak at about 50 miles out is an unnamed peak about 4 miles south of the Thurston County - Lewis County line. It is 5.3 miles SE (143 deg True) from the center of the Skookumchuck Reservoir. The important thing to notice is that the first 40 miles is pretty mild terrain, the next 75 is pretty severe, and the last 25 or 30 are very flat and mostly free of trees. He may well have wanted to jump very near the airport (SEA), but I don’t think that was much of a plan if he did. The 1st 20 miles (SEA to Parkland) the plane would spend some of that climbing to 10,000 feet. The rest would put him over McChord AFB. The next 11.2 miles is from Parkland to the end of property that is part of Fort Lewis. Then the next 12.3 miles is from the edge of Ft. Lewis to around the Lawrence Lake/Reichel Lake area. So the 1st 21.2 miles offers urban areas and military bases as possible DZs. I don’t think he would have gotten away with that (if that was his plan). The last 12.3 miles of that first 33.5 would be mostly rural farmland. This might have been his original plan. The next 81 miles is really inhospitable. This is the kind of terrain that most people think he jumped over. Then there’s that 23 miles (or so) that I think he jumped over. It is level (mostly) and in 1971 almost all farmland. The BTG VOR is 120 miles out on this track (it is shown right above the digits “120” as a tiny blue bubble on the profile. That’s where I think he jumped. Not by choice, but by chance. BTW: That jump would have occurred at 2013 PST (using the FBI’s timeline). Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Uh… uh… Hello…ello…llo..o HELLO… ELLO… LO…o Anybody out there?… here…. ere… e Mummm… I guess nobody’s there. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Skyjack71, When I get home (Monday), I’ll put on my thinking cap and see what I can come up with. I have an old friend that I have only communicated with once in the last thirty years. I had her contact information in 2002 and we sent each other a few e-mails, so maybe it’s still good. She was a United Airlines Cabin Attendant in the late sixties (64 – 70). I will try to contact her and find out if they received any “special training” to handle hijackers. Maybe she knows about the kind of questions that would be asked. However, remember, in 1971 there had been very few (if any) domestic hijackings. The training might have been related more to the “Fly this plane to Cuba” type of hijacking. Later, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Nigel99, Give me an e-mail address (not this site PM) to send them and I will send you he following hi-res USGS TOPOs that cover the FBI original DZ: Ariel Quadrangle North.jpg (1,867 KB) Ariel Quadrangle South.jpg (1,741 KB) Woodland Quadrangle North.jpg (1,929 KB) Woodland Quadrangle South.jpg (1,958 KB) Seamless Hot Zone North.jpg (2,698 KB) Seamless Hot Zone South.jpg (2,629 KB) The Ariel Quad is the East Part if the Hot Zone, The Woodland Quad is the West part of the hot zone. The seamless maps are the North and South parts of both quads. This way you can pick a spot and know the elevation (within 40 feet). These are all I have on my laptop (I’m on the road tonight). If you need other areas, I can get them for you when I get home (Monday). I have all the USGS 1:100,000 and 1:24,000 maps of Oregon and Washington. These are much better than the MapTech Topos. Send me an e-mail address by PM, e-mail, or post here and tell me which ones you want. I’ll send them immediately. My private e-mail is: walkertrain at hotmail dot com This offer is extended to all. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

skyjack71 , There’s something that has been haunting me for the last few days, and it concerns some things that Duane said to you. I don’t have a post handy that I can quote, so I’ll paraphrase as best I can. The first one was something like; “I put some money in a bucket and then forgot where I put the bucket”. The other was; “This is where Cooper walked out of the woods”. And you asked: “How do you know,” he said; “Maybe I was the one on the ground”. I hope this is enough for you to go on. Would you please, rewrite these two quotes and get them exactly right (as best as your memory can serve you)? Oh yeah; Just one more thing. Did Duane frequently speak using metaphors? (EXAMPLE) Instead of explaining why he didn’t answer the doorbell (because the TV was too loud), he would say something like; “I had wax in my ears, and didn’t hear the horn toot”. (END EXAMPLE) skyjack71 I’m like SafecrackerPLF; I think we’re closer to the truth than we have ever been. The truth may not be what we want to hear, but it’s lurking out there. And as I said in an earlier post; “Right now, my money is on Duane”. If I’m not gainfully employed, by spring, I’m going to go to Vancouver and do some more poking around. (Record searches and boots-on-ground searches). Do you know (as in personally acquainted) that guy (I can’t remember his name) who has been sampling the water in the Washougal watershed looking for unique algae and just walking the forest up there? If so, can you put me in touch with him? And to all the skydivers on this forum (Is it “skydiver” or “plane droppings”?), thanks again for your comments and PMs. Now, we got to recover SafecrackerPFL and Ckret. And yes, I do take the NW305 hijacking mystery very seriously. I just don’t take Sluggo, very seriously! I’m out for the night. Sluggo_Monster Note attached photo. Now who wants to do a tandem with me? Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I am of the belief that the flight path was as close to Victor-23 (V23) as is humanly possible. I would love to get the opinion of a commercial pilot that flew in the Pac NW back in the 70s. As of now, that’s my assumption. The track plotted on the 1971 Chart shows the plane East of V23 until he reached the BTG VOR. Then he turned more westerly and crossed the river just East of Pearson Air Park. This put him back on V-23. He crossed the river essentially on V23, which put him 2.3 miles NW of PDX Where the runways cross). He remained mostly on V-23 (as far as I can tell from the low-resolution image I have), but continued with a very erratic flight-path on into Northern California. That is, if we can believe the plotted track. Attached is a Portland Inset (from a current Seattle Sectional). It shows a Class C airspace. The chart the FBI plotted the track on (1971) did not show the Class C Space. However, V-23 certainly existed then and I suppose the airspace was cleared by ATC if it needed to be. (It would not need to be today because the highest ceiling of the Class C is 4,000 ft MSL and Scott was flying at 10,000 ft.) All accounts that I have read say they were flying V23. I have heard two arguments for why the Captain said he was flying V23, yet the plot shows that he was flying “generally near V23”. One is that they were making drastic level flight turns to try to dislodge Cooper from the stairs. Well, if that’s what they were doing, they didn’t go aft to see if they were successful, because they flew all the way to Reno not knowing if he was gone or not. I don’t think big jets can make those kinds of maneuvers (on purpose). Once again I’d like to talk to a Commercial Pilot with 727 experience. The other is that the flight crew had so much going on, they veered off course (a lot). This is more believable to me, but I’m still not buying it. I could speculate on High Altitude VOR or VORs being used at 10,000 ft. But it would take records from the day to know for sure, so it would be pure speculation. Anyway, use V-23 or use the FBI plot on a 1971 Sectional Chart, either way he crossed the river at the same place. Sluggo_Monster BTW: Thank you all for your support. Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Just for the record, I am sitting it out because I was made to feel unwanted. As far as I know I have not been censured or banned. Regardless of how I may feel about Quade’s moderation techniques, he is doing the job he was asked to do. I will not criticize him for that. I have watched what you guys have done for the last few days, and you are beginning to come around to my kind of thinking. Cooper wasn’t a “normal” person by most of our standards. Thinking like a normal person, will not help anyone understand what might have happened. I respect the skydiver’s opinions (about skydiving issues), but they think of the issues like sensible people (assuming someone who jumps from perfectly good aircraft is sensible). They (we) need to think like a whacked-out, broken-hearted, pilled-up, suicidal, terminally-ill, poverty-stricken, nut case, with a grudge against someone and balls the size of grapefruits. The FBI may (and probably does) have evidence and witness testimony that they will not or can not release. (Those things that they use to filter out kooks who want to claim to be Cooper). For instance; (this is an example not a theory), what if he asked that big cowboy that I saw getting off the plane in the Cronkite video to trade footwear with him? That would be a detail that only a few people would know. Tina wouldn’t even talk to reporters in Reno; she said the Captain had already stated that all information had to come from NW’s PR people or the FBI. So when Jake Kook says he is Cooper, the FBI says; tell us about it. No mention of the boot swap, then he ain’t Cooper. Now we have spent (not wasted) much bandwidth talking about shoes, that he may or may not have had on. So, the question to ask is not did the loafers fly off, but rather, did Tina or anyone else say he jumped with the shoes that he wore onto the plane. (End of Example) The mythology has overwhelmed the facts. I’m not even sure that after 36 years anyone can state a fact about the hijacking. I used to fly from Richland (in Eastern Washington) to Longview-Kelso I never flew directly to Longview. I stayed a little south toward Goldendale because it was mostly terrain that I felt I could make a (survivable) emergency landing. North of there was pretty abysmal. The route I took (and where I believe Cooper jumped is open farmland). My point is, knowing where he jumped, is assigning a probability of survival. This assumes that he pulled, and had a normal decent (that is your area not mine). I don’t really care if he lived or died, I just want to know which it was. I’ve known Skyjack71 for quite a while. She does not present herself well online. When you talk to her, (after you have earned her trust) you find out that there are a lot of things that would make you think, wow, that’s too strange to be coincidence. Of all the Cooper wanna-bes, my money is on Weber. Skyjack71 has been taken advantage of in the past. She deals with two conflicting feelings. She wants help with her quest for the truth, but she doesn’t trust the people who might be the very ones (or only ones) able to help her. Please continue treating her with the respect you have been showing. The FBI should be commended for allowing Agent Carr to work on the case. The way the investigation is perceived (at least by me) is that they just don’t have their head in the game. An example: The DNA from the tie. How do you determine that DNA on a tie came from the person wearing the tie (at the time it was taken into evidence)? Has this been done? How can you exclude Weber, based on the Tie-DNA, when he died in 1996 and the items sampled were obtained in 2002 (I think) with no chain-of-custody? Skyjack71 told them when they came to get them that they had been cleaned and used by other people. I want to help the FBI solve the case, but the FBI needs to help me get some facts straight. Well, I’ve gone on way too long and drifted away from my original train of thought. I want to post here on this site, but, only if I am welcome to do so. If Quade says that I am not welcome, that’s his call (remember, he has said nothing to me). If members say I am unwelcome, I will crawl back into my hole. It isn’t that I am thin-skinned (I love to joke and jab), it just that I am well aware that this is a Skydiver’s board, and I am not (an probably will never be) a Skydiver. Feedback is encouraged. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Quote from me in the old thread: I'm just one of those people who don't want to go where I'm not wanted! That’s it for me. I’m outta here! Anyone who sets up another site/forum/thread and wants my input, I can be reached at walkertrainathotmail.com. I will try not to let this experience change the way I feel about skydivers. I know that the most of you are great people that recognize that there are just too many hobbies out there for everybody to participate in yours. It’s a shame that some of your ranks, feel that skydiving isn’t a hobby, but a religion (and they are the priest). I pity you! Maybe, someday you’ll learn that the value of a human is not found in the “numbers”, but in the character of their souls. Good luck, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Reference 377's next-to-last post on the other thread: 377, Take heart my friend, your efforts are not wasted, just because you didn’t find what you hoped for. Every avenue explored, every result obtained, moves us closer to the truth. One of the issues that we have discussed (or at least I have discussed) is that in the 36 years since the event, the mythology has overwhelmed the facts. The facts in this case are elusive, and I don’t think they actually exist at this time. The closest thing to facts that this group of amateur sleuths can develop is the considered opinion of “experts”. Just like the one you quote in this post. There is a (mostly unspoken) undercurrent in this thread that the original investigators (FBI and others) “botched the investigation”. Well, of course they did, they never found Cooper (dead or alive) or the bulk of the money. Hindsight, defines the character of the investigation. If they had used the exactly the same process that they used, but instead solved the crime, no one would say it was a “botched investigation”. I am thankful that the FBI made the decision to assign Agent Carr to use a fresh approach. I’m also thankful that Agent Carr came on this thread to help us (to the extent he is allowed) speculate and search for the facts as best we can. Now what we need is for all of us (agent Carr included) to hone our sense of intellectual honesty. If we are intellectually honest, we will make progress. If we hang onto our preconceived notions, we will only add more intellectual debris to the existing pile of confusing bits of data (mythology). The fact that you started out to prove something that you truly believed (that saved radar data could pinpoint Cooper’s exit), and after consulting someone who has the expertise and historical experience to state conclusively no such data exist, then reported that result back to us, speaks loudly to your intellectual honesty. Pick your next pet theory and keep digging, your value to this armchair investigation (no offense to those who have actually put boots-on-the-ground) is to investigate and report, not to be correct in all assumptions. BTW: The post with the radar image of Cooper is just a bunch of “bulls—t”. Everybody knows the plane was travelling south, not east. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Oh! Goody! Goody! Goody! Does this mean I can be CW (Chief Whuffo) and HK (Head Kook) both at the same time? When you've led a life a dull as mine, with no challenges or stimulation, titles like CW and HK are really meaningful. Sluggo_Monster CW,HK Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Apology accepted, in fact not needed. I'm just one of those people who don't want to go where I'm not wanted. It is all a misunderstanding. I guess I do feel a little odd, posting so much to a site that I am not involved with. But I lurked for a while, and just couldn't hold off any longer. And, I understand about insider humor and how it can be misunderstood. In fact, I almost got fired once for using insider humor around the un-initiated. Janitor: Wow! That spider is huge. Sluggo: Yeah, the radiation makes them grow large, we had one get as big as a car at NTS. Well, the janitor quit and gave the reason as; "I'm afraid of the big spiders that are caused by the radiation". ...and... that's when the Vigoro hit the mixmaster! Anyway, as-you-were. Sluggo_Monster, CW CW = Chief Whuffo Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Mr. Guru312, Am I to understand that you are asking us to leave? Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

So, what's your read on the ommision of the "Aft Stair Lowered" condition? a) They just forgot to tell Flt Ops that that's how they were configured? b) The aft stair wasn't lowered at that time? When you factor this into the timeline, it has major implications. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Isn't there a 100 kbyte limit on post here? Maybe he could post it on some other site that we could retreive it from. Or personal e-mail. CKret, I'll PM you my personal e-mail address. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I can't say. WOW! That is a very old Seattle Sectional. I assume from 1971. I would give my left... er...ah...something valuable to see a higher resolution version of that chart (and more coverage). Who drew the squigly lines and why, I don't know. Surely (and don't call me Shirley) there is an old, commercial pilot on these boards, I would want an "expert opinion". It would be great if the "old Fart" had flown in the Northwest. Anybody know anyone like that? Also, I was going to say that the Portland Class C Airspace was not a factor (see attached map), but after looking at that chart, they didn't even have Class C Airspace (at Portland) at least then. I want that chart! Thanx, Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Yes, a Victor Airway is defined as being 8 nautical miles (nm) wide. But, the interpretation of this fact being made on this board is incorrect. When flying VFR (Visual Flight Rules) and not on a flight plan and not being followed on “Flight Following” You need to be aware of the Victor Airways when you are 4 nm from the centerline. You need to visually identify the traffic (it’s like crossing a highway). Remember not all aircraft are on a flight plan and being followed by ATC (in every condition). A VFR can go about anywhere (except for airspace restrictions). A commercial pilot (or more properly a commercial flight) is always on an IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) flight plan. He/she has no freedom (except for safety of the flight) to vary from the flight plan (also, don’t confuse a flight plan with a clearance). Once the plan was filed to use V-23 at 10,000 feet (which is not anything like a commercial pilot would normally do), then every navigation action is done using instruments. Remember this was before GPS. The pilot would have gotten a clearance that took him southwest (my guess is to the MCKEN Intersection (some use the term Fix instead of intersection)). He would be flying the 178.00 radial off of the SEA VOR DME. When he was 35.62 nm out, he would turn toward the ONALS Fix. This is a 0 degree turn (in other words he would stay on the SEA VOR DME 178 degree radial). He would know he was at the ONALS Fix when he was 50.15 nm away from the SEA VOR (still on the 178 degree radial) or where the 135 degree radial from the OLM VOR crossed the 178 degree radial from the SEA VOR. From the ONALS Fix he would continue to the MAYLAY Fix. He would then continue on the 178 degree heading and would now dial in the 329.19 degree radial from the BTG VOR and note when he was on the 150.93 degree radial and 33.46 nm from the OLM VOR and then turn to the 329.16 degree and 41.12 nm from the BTG VOR. And so on….. I may have missed something here, but the point I’m trying to make is at no time is the pilot wandering harem-skarem across the eight mile width of the Victor Airway. Instead he is on a very precise path along the centerline of V-23. Another issue that everyone seems to have missed (or at least no one has commented about), is a puzzling statement in the NWA logs that Ckret provided us. The 7:57 PM or 8:01 PM transmission (I’m not sure of the logging format, so I’ll assume 8:01) My interpretation of what it says is: Flight Operations: What is your altitude? Flt 305: Now at fifteen thousand, indicated airspeed is 160knts, Fuel Flow 4000 lbs/min (???I guess??), flaps at 15 degrees, gear down condition. Will stay at Ten Thousand until he has left. Flt Operations: Received message. The first altitude reported is 15,000 feet, (not out of 15,0000 which would indicate he was decending). If a guy who says he has a bomb on an aircraft says: “Don’t exceed 10,000 feet”; then by God you don’t exceed 10,000 feet. It might explode at a higher altitude (pressure switch). The log goes on to say he will remain at 10,000 ft, so does that mean the 15,000 feet parameter was a typo? If so, how much else is in error? Also, when reporting the flight parameters (flaps, wheels, etc.) there is no mention of the aft stairs. You know the aft stairs open, will change the flight characteristics. So, if it wasn’t reported, does that mean, the aft door was still closed? At 15,000 feet with the door open (unpressurized) the pilots would need to be on oxygen (for any reasonable length of time). The closest thing to facts we have in this case, come from Ckret (at least that’s my belief). So, when the material he supplies is full of contradictions, then we might as well be speculating. Ckret, once again, can we get more of the RTTY log? It would be helpful in understanding if they were making mistakes due to stress or whatever? If there is a reason you can’t supply them, just say so, and I’ll move on to something else. So, find facts, speculate, or speculate about the facts we find, it’s all the same. Anyway those are my thoughts today. I am enjoying this thread. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Please tell me that the amount of money (that was always on hand) was more than $200,000! And they just took out the requested $200,000 and sent it on its way. If not.... well.... you know! Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

There has been a persistent myth that the original suspected landing zone (up near Lake Merwin) was covered with 5 – 8 feet of ash and other ejecta after the 1980 Mt. St. Helens eruption. I must confess that I bought into it without question. My first visit to the area was in 1993 and I should have realized that it wasn’t true then. Oh well! Now I’ve got my head out of the sand. Well, I guess the myth just is not true! Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum