Sluggo_Monster

snowmman, Why do you put your “In Reply To” tag at the bottom of your posts? BigSky, Bravo! That’s what I’ve been saying for two months. We could advance the likelihood of contributing (in some meaningful way) to the solution to the case, if we had 80% less “(data) points” and concentrated on the 20% “facts”. But, remember when I tried (with 377’s help) to build a Facts vs. Myths database? No one was interested, because facts aren’t fun, mythology is. I’d give my left testicle to set down in Seattle and pour over everything the FBI (and other LE Agencies) has on the case. Ckret (Bold per your request), I’m puzzled about two things: First, I flew about once a week in 1971. Air travel was very different then. I flew from SFO to LAX or from SJC to SNA (John Wayne now) for $16.xx one way. Planes left from those airports to the other every hour on the hour. I never showed an ID, I could purchase the ticket under any name I wanted, I could take anything on board (carry-on) that would fit under the seat in front of me or in the overhead. I don’t think a cabin attendant would notice if I had anything when I boarded, unless it was problematically large or I was unable to get it in the overhead and she had to help me so I wouldn’t be blocking the aisle. (Note: PC Police, they were ALL females back then.) So the question is, since Tina was sent forward, how do you know that Cooper didn’t get something out of the overhead. Something he left there or something a confederate left there. I’m sure all passengers were treated as suspects and questioned, but was it cursory or detailed? If you have no background on Cooper, how would you know if a particular passenger might have been a confederate? That question may not be too clear, so, here’s an example: [example] Cooper works at TRW (maybe even has a Security Clearance). Bill works at TRW and has a “Q”. Bill brings some “tools” on board and puts them in the overhead (maybe including a parachute), he boards at PDX or possibly deplanes at PDX, (in which case he probably would have never been even interviewed). Otherwise he exits with all the other passengers at SEA and gets questioned (debriefed). He’s a solid guy, with a “Q”, so he’s eliminated from the suspect list. Nobody even knows he a Cooper work together.[/example] I’m sure there are some records of the passengers who deplaned at SEA (as far as their backgrounds), but what about those who boarded at previous stops? Second, oh never mind, I’ll save it for another day, the above is too much already. All, In your next post, please state whether you were or were not an adult in 1971. This is not frivolous; I have a good reason for asking. BTW: I WAS an adult in 1971. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

My paper is made out of paper, hence the name. In fact, it’s crappy paper, it’s the paper I make paper Marché out of. On the other hand, my money is made mostly of cloth. Find a better analogy. Right string, wrong Yo-Yo. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Hot Off The Press Parachute thought to be from '45 military crash By CASEY MCNERTHNEY P-I REPORTER The FBI confirmed Tuesday that there was no connection between D.B. Cooper -- the man still wanted for the world's only unsolved hijacking -- and the parachute dug up last month in southwest Washington. The hijacker boarded a commercial Portland-to-Seattle flight Nov. 24, 1971, and demanded $200,000 and four parachutes. The one working parachute he jumped with was a military issue model, and children playing last month on newly plowed property near Amboy thought they had discovered it. "Cooper's parachute was nylon, and the one the FBI has is silk," said Earl Cossey, the man who provided Cooper's chute and inspected the FBI's find on Friday. "The one they have is from about 1945." So where did the mysterious chute come from? A local military historian and an Air Force veteran believe it could be from a 1945 crash in the same area. Marine Lt. Floyd Walling was piloting a Corsair airplane flying from Portland to Seattle on Dec. 27, 1945. He later told his wife that he encountered bad weather and had to bail out when his instruments failed. "Every time I tried to get him to quit smoking, he said it was a cigarette lighter that kept him alive," said his son, Choya Walling, of Bryan, Texas. "He used it to build a fire to stay warm." Walling walked about eight miles until he came near the town of Yale, about nine miles from Amboy, the following day. "He had followed a creek for the last part and we found him near Reese's store," said Howard Hanson, who was an Army Air Force lieutenant assigned to search for Walling. "We wanted to find out exactly where he landed, but he was really confused and noncommittal after being out there." Another pilot who had bailed out from another plane was found dead in his chute. Jo Walling said her husband, who later fought in the Korean War and died in 1999, didn't specify how he got out of his parachute. Hanson said that, depending on the type of chute, he either slipped out of the harness or used a survival knife most pilots carried in case their chutes became hung up. The date stamped on the found parachute -- Feb. 21, 1946 -- is the repacking date, not the packing date, Hanson said. Local military historian John "Cye" Laramie said last week that date was the only thing questionable about linking it to Walling's crash. FBI spokeswoman Robbie Burroughs said it's "definitely possible" Walling's chute is the one they have, but the bureau does not plan to further investigate it. "We never did find Walling's chute," said Hanson. "It just was left out there in the same place they found what they thought was Cooper's parachute. That's why when I heard about all this, I was sure it wasn't Cooper's." Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I would be willing to bet Cooper wore sunglasses for the same reason Pirates and Nuclear Bomber Pilots wear an eye-patch. Not to be cool, not to shade their eyes from other people's glances, but to dark adapt the eye/eyes. I'd bank on it, so, Ckret maybe you should think about it when you develop a profile. I think Cooper was a lot smarter than Ckret does. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All (especially Safe…PLF), I tickled a little data from USGS for one of the hydrologic stations on the Columbia: STATION.-- 14144700 Columbia River at Vancouver, WA LOCATION.-- Lat 45° 37'15", Long 122° 40'20", in NE1/4,NW1/4 sec. 34, T.2 N.,R.1. E., Clark County, Hydrologic Unit 17080001, near right bank in control house of Interstate Highway 5 bridge at south edge of Vancouver, 5.0 miles upstream from Willamette River, and at mile 106.5. DRAINAGE AREA.-- 241,000 mi2, approximately. PERIOD OF RECORD.--October 1963 to June 1970 (discharge), February 1998 to current year (gage heights only). GAGE.-- National Weather Service stage gage. Datum of the gage is Columbia River Datum, add 1.82 feet to correct to NGVD of 1929. REMARKS.--Considerable regulation by many large reservoirs. Diurnal fluctuations caused by powerplant operations at Bonneville Dam and tides. Gage maintained by National Weather Service. EXTREMES FOR PERIOD OF RECORD.--Maximum gage height, 27.60 ft Dec. 25, 1964, present datum, (backwater from Willamette River). EXTREMES OUTSIDE PERIOD OF RECORD.--Flood of June 7, 1894, reached a stage of 34.4 ft, present datum, from information provided by U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Flood of June 13, 14, 1948, reached a stage of 31.0 ft, present datum, from National Weather Service records. I’ll see if I can wrestle some more out of it. Also, I don’t know where I got the photo of one of the bills, but is sure shows a lot of decay and damage. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

My head is swimming. I took an afternoon off, just to get away from DB and you guys create 100 posts about 12 different subjects. It’ll take me a week to get it sorted out. 377, How do you know I’m not a Ph.D? I’ll have you to know I’ve been called “a Pin-Headed Dope” more times than I can count! (Not to mention references to “Piling it Higher and Deeper Safe…PLF, I knew I was blowing it with my discussion about SBF. Basically, you are saying the same thing, just I don’t think it would “sink like a rock”. The compression factor or bulk modulus or whatever it’s called (I forgot all my physics when I walked out of school, and my books are in my warehouse) of water is high, so low flow exerts large force. Maybe in a lake there wouldn’t be enough force to move it, so your point is well taken. Snowman, Good photos, I’ll have some photos of that location (address) per Garmin MapSource, so take it with a grain of salt. Also the .kml file. On the google Earth Photo I have the point that I have used every since Safe…PLF straightned me out on the location (Old Thread) and the Way Marking Point. Ckret, My bowling score is around 100, with the Glock Mod 22 maybe 82. The problem is the bowling alley folks go “prompt critical” when I shoot their bowling pins... especially during league play! Colson, Here is a photo of a “Cooper Vane” (for all to see.) I’m going to visit Mr. Basil Hayden, see you tomorrow. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Safe…PLF, I need some clarification in regard to your thinking: You seem to be putting a high value on determining how long the bag would float. I need to know why you consider that important. I’m well aware that money “floating” is more likely to be seen (by anyone other than a diver) but other than that, I don’t see where it would effect transport and transport probabilities significantly. Here’s my reasoning: Let’s assign a buoyancy factor to the bag of money after it has become “water-logged and reached equilibrium with the surrounding water (salinity, mineral content, temperature, etc.”, henceforth called “Sluggo Buoyancy Factor (SBF)”. I am going to use 1.00 as equal to the ambient water. (Note: I’m intentionally not using Specific Gravity (SG) because of technical limitations in the definition.) If it has a SBF greater than or equal to 1.00 it sinks, if it has a SBF equal to 1.00 it in neutrally buoyant and stays just below the surface but does not sink, and if it has a SBF less than or equal to 1.00 it floats. Now in an experiment (like a swimming pool) the SBF would be a constant (remember it only applies to water-logged and reached equilibrium with the surrounding water as long as the temperature and/or other factors don’t change rapidly. Now out there in the “real world” of streams and rivers the SBF would be constantly changing, some creek is different than the Washougal, which is different from the Columbia. Once the bag was allowed to equilibrate in a particular body of water, it would have the same SBF regardless. Now Here’s the crux of my discussion: In the natural environment of a moving stream there are so many variables that the SBF would not matter (in an overall or general sense). Sure it would change the specifics, but not the general aspects of transport. If the bag was full of rocks (and that’s another discussion) sure it would have a huge SBF and not move, if it had an SBF of 5 it would move slower and take higher water flow rates to move it than if it had a SBF of 1.4. It’s just that to me, when you consider the variables of snags on the bottom, eddies, etc. the exact floating/sinking characteristics are just not all that important. I think that you can safely assume that a bag of money would be transported in the direction of flow of any stream or river that was at least as deep as the maximum dimension of the bag (or the draft if it floats) at a rate that would be less that the flow-rate of the stream or river. If it moved at the same rate as the stream, it would have arrived on Tena Bar a lot sooner than it did. So, I envision a lot of starts and stops, hang-ups, etc. The reason I’m saying this is, I just hate to see you spend (Note: I didn’t say “waste”) time on an experiment that gains nothing substantial. For other posters: I found a USGS web site that has daily historical data on river and stream flow going back over a hundred years, the problem is that its interface sucks. I will try to get proficient with it so I can supply our resident “Watershed Expert” (Safe…PLF) with some useful data. If anyone out there has experience with that database, please contact me. Also, if anyone need specific maps of the area, I will be glad to supply them. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

The link to Columbian.com is not working for me. Maybe it is getting too many hits. I get a "Cold-Fusion " diagnostic screen. I'll try again later. 'da Slug ________________________________________________________________________ EDIT: I got it... They Changed the headline, it's now "Expert - Unearthed chute not Coopers" Sluggo Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Speaking of the Cronkite Video…. There is a man getting off the plane (or maybe escorting the passengers) who has what looks like a small portable radio of the time. Not a “Walkie-Talkie” but an AM or AM/FM transistor radio. These screen captures don’t make him very clear, so look at the video and watch for him. He comes into the field at about 00:24 into the video. Ckret, Is this guy Law Enforcement, a passenger, Airport Management? Do you have any idea who he is and why he has what appears to be a radio receiver (not Transmitter/receiver). Sluggo Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

That's where the "screen captures" came from. Sluggo Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I couldn’t find the other photo I have of the Aft door after landing at Reno, so here are a few screen captures from the ABC World News Tonight with Walter Cronkite (11/26/1971). The quality of the images is poor, but, I just don’t see all that much damage. The last photo (Last.jpg) is an example of how damage to an aft door should look. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I got a request to post this photo here. It was taken just after dawn on 11/25/1971 by Marilyn Newton a photographer for the Reno Gazette-Journal. I think the stairs that lower from the aft door (sometimes referred to as the ramp) were badly damaged. But, it didn't seem to keep them from securing the aft door. I believe the plane is exactly where it was parked the night before, but I'll have to dig that info up. I have another photo with the door open, but I'll have to find it. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Well, I finally got confirmation on this info. It is not fact based. It is someone's conjecture. Appologies to all for the false alert. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Hey SafecrackingPLF and Skywhuffo, Don't you guys have jobs or something. How can you sit around all day and chase a dead guy? (Or maybe a live guy.)

I reserve the right to retract this later, but their clearance was on V-23. The hand drawn line on the Av Chart (from the FBI Website) shows a lot of wiggling around but still just a couple of miles (maybe 4) away from V-23. A month ago, I would have said that they wouldn’t have gotten even that far off the Victor Airway. But, after reading the transcript, I realized they were struggling with a lot of issues and this was before the concept of “Cockpit Resource Management” was taught to pilots. That, coupled with the fact that they were flying in an unusual attitude, at an unusual altitude, and a never before flown configuration (for those pilots) it is easy to see that they might have gotten 2 - 4 NM off course. (Remember, the pilot hadn’t even looked at the charts and studied the FP before take-off.) However, 13 Stat. miles, is a bit much, plus ATC would have surely given them warnings if they were that far off (even though they gave them 4000 ft of altitude variance, something unheard of in a normal flight). The pilot was (surely) aware that the terrain (higher terrain) was to the east, so any major intentional deviation from V-23 would have been to the west. Remember, these pilots usually fly at FL26 (26,000 ft.) to FL38 (or so), scud-running in a B-727 would be contrary to there experience and hence they would have been out of their “Comfort Zone”. That cannot be fun. So, I would place the likelihood of them being 13 Stat. Miles off (to the East) of V-23 to nil. Any Part 121 pilots out there, want to comment, I yield the floor to you. PS: I’m fairly sure the only aircraft “in chase” at the approximate jump time was a helicopter (nervous palm-tree), since it was referred to (in the transcripts) as “Rescue ##”. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

All, I received some information from a quasi-anonymous source. I tried to verify whether it was the truth or just someone with time on their hands and a fertile imagination, but I was unable to do so. Requests for a source, so I could verify the authenticity of the information, have gone un-answered so I’m going to post this, with the caveat as just stated. I have uploaded two images the first (Truck-and-Tractor-5583-ft-ANN-RED.jpg) is a Google Earth Image (taken 05/07-2007) at an apparent altitude of 5583 feet. It shows the approximate parachute location and a region of interest labeled “Truck and Tractor”. The other image (Truck and Tractor-Close.jpg) is at an apparent altitude of 1080 feet. The quasi-anonymous source claims the truck is parked over the location of the parachute find. I sat on this for one day, waiting for a response from the sender, so, now I’m posting. It’s yours, for what it’s worth. Once again, this is not my work, I don’t do rumors, myths, and conjecture. Well, maybe conjecture. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

The news statement was "near Amboy, WA" not "in Amboy, WA". In Post #424 I uploaded a screen capture of Larry Carr pointing to a point on the January 1972 search map (I have a high-res copy). Collaborating with Safe...PLF and others we determened that he was pointing approximately to the Ceader Creek location as found in the .klm. See: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=97468; I have some more to follow. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

snowmman, ? ? ? ? ? ? Don’t see a straight line. What am I missing? See attached map image and .klm file (for Google Earth}. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Snowman, See my post 198 which was in response to a question from Post #185. Pull quote from Post #198 below: I honestly believe he knew that Victor 23 was the only viable route based on the flight configuration he specified and he timed his jump off of the turn at the BTG VORTAC. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Ckret, As we say in the "Deep South" my beloved "Deep South"; "You jes' messin' wid us? Wha cha wanna do that fer?" Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

I rarely watch FOX News so I put my wife into "monitor" mode. She saw nothing about Dan Cooper. BTW: Geraldo Live (or whatever it's called) is on the "FOX News" cable channel, not the Fox Network. Sluggo Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Ckret, Man! Am I ever glad to see you back! Understood. If you have been reading the posts here you are aware that I have decided that the myth of D B Cooper has completely overwhelmed the facts about the NW Flt 305 Hijacking. I tried to build a database of “Facts” and 377 was going to keep a database of “myths” but it failed miserably. All I accomplished was getting everyone mad at me. Please be aware that most people do not know what you (an FBI agent) actually do in your day-to-day activities and what rules, procedures, regulations, laws, codes, and compliance documents dictate the path you have to take when dealing with the public. Speaking for myself (and possibly others), when you first showed up on this forum you became two people. Ckret, the guy who shares my fascination with the NW 305 Hijacking, and Larry Carr, the FBI agent that I can use as a source of factual information. That is, if Larry Carr is allowed to give me factual information. So, for me, there is a dilemma, how do I deal with Ckret and how do I deal with Larry Carr? If I ask Larry Carr to send me some information (about the case), can I really expect him to do it? Or, would I expect him to politely (FBI agents are always polite ) refer me to the FOIA request form? Conversely, If I ask Ckret for some information, and he gives it to me, am I getting facts, based on Larry Carr’s knowledge that has not been released to the general public, or am I getting conjecture from Ckret based only on information that has been released? Or, worse, am I getting mis-directed so that if I repeat the info elsewhere, Larry Carr doesn’t get accused of releasing information that shouldn’t have been released. The later case is the one I would hope to avoid, because it is not helpful to me in my quest to assemble the facts of the case. When you first posted here, I think you posted as Larry Carr. You were using this forum as an extension of your “get the public involved” campaign. For myself, I think I came to think of you as my “personal FBI agent” and expected things from you that you were not able to deliver. I got very frustrated when you didn’t respond to every question and PM. So, in the future you will be Ckret and I will gather “facts” through FOIA. However, I will ask, that you make me aware of any reliable data sources (other than the supposed FOIA documents on the FBI’s web site) that would keep me from making FOIA request on info already released. For someone who spent years completing FOIA Exemption Affidavits on every document I ever produced, I haven’t the slightest idea how to file a FOIA Request. But I bet I’ll figure it out! Now, a question for Ckret, in cases like the recently found parachute, does the FBI ever use volunteers to do “boots-on-ground” tasks? I have a skill-set that might be useful and a lot of time on my hands. (hint, hint) Again, welcome back! Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Novalis, I found it! Here is ther link to the transcript of 305's communications with Flt Ops, Ground Control, Center, etc. http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/thebigblog/library/dbcooper_transcripts.pdf I reccomend that everyone read this thing. It is amazing how much it differs from some of the things we have been led to believe (facts?). Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Novalis, I have a copy. I tried to find the site I downloaded it from and was unable. There are two ways you can get it. 1. Send me a private e-mail to "w a l k e r t r a i n at h o t m a i l dot c o m" (you know what to do with this) and I will send it as an attachment (it is 1.02 Mbytes). 2. You can go to my Yahoo Discussion Group; “D B Cooper” research and download it from the “Files” section. I have some other stuff there also (like high-res maps of the areas of interest). Frankly the Yahoo discussion groups are kind of “gimpy” but it gives me a place to put big files to share with other Cooper enthusiast. Here’s how to join the D.B. Cooper Yahoo Discussion Group: STEP ONE: Obtain a Yahoo ID if you don't have one. It's easiest to use the Yahoo Membership Wizard. STEP TWO: Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/D_B_Cooper_Research/ and click "Join This Group", following the directions given. STEP THREE: Have Fun! Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum

Orange1, I think she was refering to my post from yesterday. It was actually a friendly recognition that we have some differences in what the jump time was. The target was my friend and colaborator SafecrackingPLF. Let's face it, we all have our beliefs. Jo, Sorry you took it that way. Sluggo_Monster Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum