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Hi RiggerPaul, Everything you've said is true. Is very easy to extract the handle from the velcro even with the pinky finger. If I compare the strength needed to remove the handle from the velcro with the strength needed to do the same thing on my friends rig I'll aproximate that mine is like 20% of the normal strength (even compare with the one I had on my dolphin). > Not all riggers are the same, that is true. But I don't personally know any rigger who would intentionally tell you wrong information. And here is where I'm lost too. I can't make any sense of this experience. > It sounds to me like there is a communication problem between you and your rigger - that he doesn't understand that you are having a serious problem with your rig. Yes and no. Yes because when I've left the rig at the DZ it was a busy day there (he's working in a tandem factory doing tandems) and I couldn't speak with him personally but I've shown to the main tandem packer (also a rigger but not a master rigger) how easy is to remove the handle. No because my roomate (a good friend who I trust) went jumping to this DZ and he spoke with this rigger and *SHOW HIM* how easy is to remove the handle from the MLW. They've argued about this subject. So the only way I can make sense of this story is to imagine that the rigger really thinks its safe to jump my rig and because we were newbies to rigging he thinks he's right and us wrong (which my be true, but then again 2 times in one day ... this didn't happen on my old dolphin). I will take my rig to another rigger and I will keep doing this until I get the same pulling strength as I had on my old dolphin or what my friends have on Javelin and Talon FX. I'm using my friends rigs as base line for the pulling strength. The only thing that I know in this moment is that I don't trust that rigger and I'll keep this lack of trust until I can find a way to explain his answer to me (I am wrong that strength is OK or he wanted to get rid of a problem that eats time and make more tandems). Are there any regulations or guide lines regarding how big the pulling streght should be? Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

I guess I'm just too angry

Look out guys, don't believe only one rigger! I got this new wings container that has some bad velcro and the reserve handle is finding it's way out of the velcro during free fall (belly). It happen 2wice. Brought it to a rigger and he goes to fix this it takes me 2 hours and the velcro is good enough to me, I've put it in and it stayed there. Reality doesn't agree with him. So trust not your rigger, take you gear personally, use the rigger as a way to tech yourself things what you don't understand yet and do realize that there are more than 1 riggers out there and each one of them see things differently. Some of them are riggers for the wrong reasons like this one that I know. I will provide the name on PM request because I think the every one of us should be hold and told when we do something wrong so that we'll correct and make this a better world. Regards, Jean-Arthur Deda. Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

It's confortable. True. The risers are closer to your head and I get riser slaps on camera jumps more easy compared with Javelin (for instance). I have to put my head down and I don't like that. The Free-Fly pilot chute is another thing that bothers me. It has 2 inch of line between the apex and the handle. I wish that the handle was built on top of the PC apex. Don't go for the cordura BOC. I don't like it anymore. I think spandex is better. Remember, this is my post so all these are my oppinions.

Now, that I'm seeing more of that experience, I'm not sure I have the skills to do something good with it. Thank you very much for the offert though

Thank you Ms. Wings, So they slow you down but ... how do they feel compare with the slick free-fly suits? Do you feel you have less control range or more or the same? (Criptical question, I know ) Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

Hey Guys, I got this stupid cotton belly fly suit with no booties and it gives me what it feels like a binaray range (lift or no lift). I mostly free fly with tunnel suits but the old-school 1Olav clown suit really atracts me

You don't have to popup to land well. I like the way you've wrote that Very visual! "/\/\" = bumpy ride, turbulance "|" = stall . |-. = me taking a leak Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

Don't you mean experienced? Psssst... We are as old as we feel Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

> Sorry but loving what you doing and loving teaching isn't enough . . probably necessary but not sufficient. Well, honestly, you can only validate this conclusion if you live it from inside because someone saying "I love doing this" doesn't necessary means that he does. If this is honestly true for you it means that you don't have the love of teaching and that's OK in my world ... but please don't say this like its the ultimate truth because is not and people who love teaching will be offended. And no, I'm not talking about the instructor who coached detached from behind the glass. Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

I disagree with you! I've wrote a big mail explaining my perspective but at the heart of it an instructor is good if he loves doing and teaching. A natural skydiver that is an instructor can invent new moves but he has to learn new teaching methods from the non natural ones(and this is not an easy process). A non natural skydiver can invent new teaching methods but he has to learn new moves from natural ones (and this is not an easy process). I see it as a balance: The easier it is for you to discover something new the hard it will be to explain it. The harder it is to do it the easier it will be to explain it once you've made sense of it. Notice that "something new" is the key word here to understand my perspective! I've also seen coaches, coaching from behind the glass and students flying mentis without needing it and doing less points than what they usually did in the box man. Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

> he difference between him and you? He realizes that the fact that he "got it" and I didn't doesn't make him a better skydiver/instructor/coach/person than I am. To me, this makes all the sense in the world. This is the quality every instructor should have. A natural skydiver is not a good instructor/coach/mentor even for others natural skydivers because (s)he can't relate to what they are experiencing when they don't succeed the 1st time they try something. Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

> Landed 10m from the peas. No way! This is cool! Did you had to put a lot of effort for this to happen? ... how do you steer? Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

Thanks for taking the time. Already contacted a master rigger and now ... now I'm waiting to find a ride Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

So how is it to jump a round? Did it felt safe? Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

> I mean if there was some major problem with the metal cables that was taking lives regularly but there isn't. Are you saying that we're adding something "new" (and this is a key word) to an allready working system that interracts in a predictable manner within it's average usages without having any *need* for it? Do we have any other inovations like this out there that are driven by other things than necessity? Hmmm, out of curiosity ... what do you think is driven by other things than necessity on wings and dolphin containers? Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

> The chances of your reserve handle coming out are slim. ... not to me ... my velcro is new and shit and my low profile finds his way out ... even on the exits. One might be tempted to say that the chances of having shitty Velcro on a new rig are low too but it happen to me. > Taking the emotional argument out of the equation Can I keep the imaginary argument that you've brought at least? The tazz devil? I like it. I have an imaginary tazz devil too. He jumps out of a Cessna and snag his spectra coord in something sharp enough from the door frame. He's name is Snagallot, Sir Snagallot and he likes to chew on Cessna doors. Which one has a bigger probability of snags Metal or Spectra? (this is not a rhetorical question, I have no idea, I haven't tested this and I hate using personal hunches) Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

This is genius !!!! Can I still this and propragate it under the freestyle publishing rights of BillVon? Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

Are you saying that if few lines are snagged over the reserve handle that has a metal chord and one is trying to cut the lines there's only one possibility (not probability) to happen and that's to deploy your reserve in the mess? I'll say that the possibilities are more than one and their probabilities depends on the mind set of the person, the cutting strength needed to cut a snagged line from the main (that is now over the reserve handle) and the strength needed to deploy the reserve with the metal thingy. If those strength are tangible not the same to our jumper and if the person is in the right mental state he will feel a higher resistance when he snags the metal chord and say WTF? and he would take a look to see WTF. Altitude left will only change his mind set. I also think that we're trying to kill a mosquito with a sledge hammer. I've never seen CRW guys having a cool container with all the cool gadgets. The reserve handle is rarely used. But I'm a person that jumped, I had my reserve handle getting out of the velcro and flapping around and I was fine. I've noticed only on landing and in that 1 min of flying nothing happen. It didn't felt wow this is soo bad because nothing happen in that minute. I've stop jumping till I fix the velcro but in my world having the reserve handle floating is not necessarily bad just something you want to avoid because it increases your chance of getting injured or killing someone. I've stopped jumping for this reason only. I have a small profile reserve handle with the metal thingy line. Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

I have wings, I like wings. Compared with my old dolphin I get this differences: - I can move and run more easy. My wings is articulated. - It stays (doesn't splip) on my upper body even when the chest strap is not routed. - It feels confortable on the upper body with a lose or tight chest strap. - I can arch even when I tighten my chest strap a lot. - I didn't put a spandex BOC and now I regret it. The B. Germain pilot packing method that is anti horse shoe doesn't help with my current BOC. If I extract my bridle at a certain angle (left) it will create a bump in the pilot chute. This worked pretty well on my dolphin. - I can't jump it anymore because my friends are telling me that I'm going to die or kill someone with the bad velcro I have on the reserve handle. The reserve handle poped out of velcro in freefall and now nobody whants to jump with me ... and I understand them. I wish I could fix the damn velcro or a senior rigger but no... I have to get to the master rigger for a velcro job. Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

When paraflite was up&running they had this HiGlide parachute for military service called PARIS (like a deployable paraglider). Along with technical data they published the graphs that you requested (polar curve, etc). Most of the data was done to show that on night jumps with 0 visibility there's a good chance of surviving the landing in brakes. About 3 years ago I was on the same quest as you so I've save them. Meanwhile paraflite teleported to zodiak and the web site is down. See the attachments. Edit to add: From the polar curve you can get some interresting information: - In no wind on toggles the greatest glide is around half brakes. This might be true for every skydiving canopy. - With increased WL the glide ratio goes down in full speed. This might be true for PARIS only. If you're interested in learning about the polar curve follow this guy http://www.jdburch.com/glidercd/aerodyn.htm Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

There's no real need for that formula in the world we live. It doesn't help you much. Even if you have the speed how would you use it? Let's say the forward speed in deep brakes is X. This number can't give you any real informations at all. At the end of the flare, which is a dynamic process, the forward speed is different than X. In the process of flare, depending on how you flare the canopy (stages, time spend in each stage and in between), you'll have different speeds (the AoA and the WL will increase diferently in diferent flare types). Even if you find the number X for forward speed at the end of the flare it only going to tell that is within your running speed. We all know this because we land parachutes in nowind, crosswind or downwind (hehehehe). However, starting running from a confortable harness is not that confortable, in the begining. Esspecially when your body is tilted backward by the canopy moving back at a higher AoA. Let's go on the other side and lets say that X is higher than your running speed. What then?

... and you brought the punch line of this thread!!! Thank you!!! yes !!!! Freaking amazing ... Interresting exit, in my head the people in the exit should have face the rotated 180 but this one seems interresting enough ... man 6 points ... I can't believe they kept the booties

It's a good start :) Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

Fingers crossed ... and thank you mister! Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!