dorbie

You cannot buy the components cheaper than you can a complete system from Dell, especially when you factor in the cost of legit software (even OEM packages). I've priced it many times. There's also the downside that when it comes to assembly and installing your OS you're on your own. If the PC doesn't post you'd better have some spare parts around to start trouble shooting. It's fun to build a PC (for me) and I've done often it but it's the last thing I'd recommend for anyone asking a question like this. Then there's the issue of ongoing support (OK if you built it I suppose but not if you got a helpful friend to build it for you).

You mean the Onion isn't true?

The media is, as usual, really on in it to report on sensational stories, even if they have to make them up. If anybody caught the CBS news last night, you might have seen a story on the coral reefs. That footage was filmed from my uncles boat. He only gave permission after he was assured it would be a fair and balanced piece. To make a long story short, they ended up reporting that all coral reefs have sustained major damage. This is just plainly not true. As a matter of fact the footage they used ot show the state of the coral reefs prior to the tsunami was really shot after the tsunami....... Naturally now the local producer is blaming the New York producer etc etc. In the end they got another sensational story, who cares whether or not it is true. Unfortunately, the average viewer will just take it for gospel. Yup if anyone's the ghoul it's the asshole writing the story. There's a disaster on an unimaginable scale and this waste of flesh flies in there to cover it and winds up writing sensational stories attacking tourists there with typical tabloid fare. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Yup, I was re-editing the post probably as you were reading. It's corrected, including the subject.

This is beginning to look like a confirmed story: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-01/04/content_405831.htm http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/front_1.html Actually if you compare the stories the more confirmed one suggests it's an aide not the man himself.

Might I suggest that the last thing these people need is for their tourist industry and source of jobs to be decimated by attacking anyone who goes there as a ghoul. Do you really think the people on that beach are so different from you or I? They probably saved the whole year for their paltry 2 weeks in the Sun that they booked months ago and wound up in the middle of a disaster area making the best of a bad situation.

O- isn't that uncommon (7%) but O- type recipients have a shortage of donors in part because unlike other types they can only receive their own blood type and O- donations can be used for anyone. So if you have O- blood your blood is particularly useful. Unfortunately if you ever need blood you've drawn the short straw, depending on how stocks are managed. Edit: oops, never noticed the data & the bump.

You should get a desktop if you're not going to use a laptop's mobility. There's a significant price premium for a laptop and the performance is compromised. You can certainly do wireless connectivity from a desktop, I'd advise running a wire though (security and uncompromised bandwidth, but for most internet some wireless options are fine). Most PC motherboards come network capable these days but they typically don't support wireless without a PCI add in card. You can buy these in your local retail outlet or try to get one from the manufacturer when you order the system. Dell offer some of the best prices and well built complete systems. I just purchased a desktop system for my sister. Their service has been variable over the years but I think it's back to being acceptable.

If that's the philosophy, then a DZ owner won't be a DZ owner for very long. There's this remarkable thing that tends to hit people pretty hard. It's called "reality." When the DZO says, "I'd like to keep this DZ open. Unfortunately, I'll have to close it in two months because I'll be broke" THAT is the bottom line. Christ. Why the hell can't some people understand that? FWIW I agree with everything your saying, I also see you've changed your avatar from a birthday cake to cash. Is this thread the reason?

Well it ain't paying customers that's putting them out of business.

Yea shocking that you'd ever need to more parking space to accommodate all those extra customers. Just turn them away, it's much cheaper to lose the business. Firepits, they're fucking expensive these days. You can't turn a bunk room into a profit center I mean you'd have to charge $8 an night for that! Tandems never want to see their video before leaving the DZ. etc. etc. etc.

Bingo. That's what some of us crusty old curmudgeons object to. LOL

I still don't see anything that says a DZ inevitably loses money on fun jumpers, (I always thought the $5 was on the high side as an estimate). I wasn't bitching, if you think we're supplemented then increase your fun jump ticket prices and quit bitchin at us about how hard you've got it and how grateful we should be that you ream tandem customers for our benefit. It ain't healthy. If you're setting an industry standard price on jump tickets that is turning DZs into tandem factories then fix it. Excuse me for being completely unapologetic for showing up and buying jump tickets from your business at the advertised price.

I agree but the overhead with most dropzones is pretty low. They are located in far out rual areas where the land is cheap. All you really need is a Manifest booth a dirt airstrip a very old plane a tandem rig or 2 an outhouse that is about it. Skydivers are not picky about their facilities. The airplane is the only real expense with fuel costs. How can dropzones not handle these costs? Don't know what you mean. They obviously do handle these costs or they wouldn't be around. DZs that don't aren't around any more or changed hands. Many of the DZs I jump at are situated on land now worth millions. They could sell tomorrow and realize a fortune, they choose not to. Of course the appreciation in value of owned land is ultimately profit, but may be a timebomb for the sport. If they're leasing it certainly is. I never considered the aircraft, equipment & facilities cheap, but the DZs I've jumped at are some of the best.

Yes and no. You need money to keep the place open. Definitely agree with this, profit is vital and earned.

Yup, infact my DZ offers $99 tandems. Do you think those are providing a profit or an attempt to get the person to continue in skydiving with AFF and provide more profit? Atleast 23 more student jumps, then the gear sales, etc. Believe what you want for the numbers, you really don't have that much of an idea of the costs involved with running a DZ. I honestly think you'd be very very surprised if you learned the reality. Am I also expected to believe that the first 4 AFF jumps are loss leaders too? What about AFF 5? 2 rigs vs 1 tandem and greater qualification for the staff same seats on the plane. If I believe your numbers on tandem margins everything would have to be a loss leader until the student is back to fun jumping. Waving your hands and saying we have no idea on costs doesn't cut it, we don't have all the numbers but we have some. All this aside, you've confirmed that fun jumpers supplement DZs with a helathy profit which was the main point. Obviously I still don't buy your tandem numbers.

I would guess they make a lot more than that. That would be after the following bills are paid: Manifest, how many are working that day and how many hours Pilots, how many loads did they fly Fuel for the Airplanes Insurance for the airplanes Parts and labor for the airplane Grounds keepers? (to include any one that is working to keep the DZ looking nice or picking up jumpers0 Untility bills (water, sewer, lights, heat/AC) Parts and labor to keep the gear safe (reserve repacks, and paying the packers) paying the JM Oh and let's not forget all the little things that are needed around the DZ, I'm sure you've used some of the toilet paper out there in the past. Until you have done the books for a DZ, you have no idea how much or how little they make. Damn, I can't believe I got sucked into this thread. True but after those costs are fairly amortized against all jumps at a healthy DZ I'd guess the margin for a tandem to be in excess of $100. Discounted offers I've seen seem to confirm this and place the margin even higher for some DZs.

They are priced as the market will handle, with that said, generally speaking there is quite a bit of overhead in a tandem skydive. Instructor, packer, fuel cost, pilot, plane, tandem rig, tandem rig maintance, then there's a bit of money left over for profit. Generally speaking if I've paid attention correctly, an average DZ makes about $20 profit per tandem. That's compared to around $5 per fun jumper. No doubt they're priced at what the market will bear, the sky is also blue. I'm surprised by your numbers though, but you have illustrated that fun jumpers make a healthy profit for the DZ. Wow 25% net on gross receipts is a huge profit from fun jumpers especially when compared to the percentage on tandems. When you consider the seating on a load 2 vs 1 seat the information is even more interesting. I do think your numbers on tandems are unfortunately bogus though. I've seen second tandem jumps for $99. You could also look at an AFF jump and consider you have 3 rigs 2 AFFI and 3 seats on a load on a cheaper jump and know instantly that your tandem numbers are complete rubbish based on the DZs I've seen, unless they're throwing money away on loss leaders which they aren't.

Well I don't believe that assertion, it may be higher but I don't buy your number. I know if one DZ in my area started charging $40 I'd go to another along with hundreds of other fun jumpers. Some DZs in my area charge $17 to try to attract fun jumpers. I think Fun jumpers are infact a useful and profitable component of the business. Now maybe if you wanted to generate the same margins as another segment of your business you could try to raise prices, but it wouldn't work because of competition and most DZOs know it. I understand DZs have a lot of fixed overheads but there is a difference between absolute profit and the relative margins of different segments of your business and this is what's being used to guilt fun jumpers over the whole tandem jumping issue, something that is in fact largely out of their control.

It's definitely a great introduction to the sport. Why the typical tandem price is set where it generates so much profit (if it does as claimed) is anyone's guess. I reckon whuffos don't really want to shop around for a cheap tandem skydive for obvious reasons, and maybe that's a good thing.

You just nailed it That is the point I was trying to convey with my original message! DZO's need to be thankful for every customer they have, not just the wuffos. edited to add: we all had to pay a considerable amount of money for both gear and training, we've earned that cheaper jump ticket. Well we agree on the basic principal but I don't think paying for training and a rig earned me the right to a cheap jump ticket. Nor do I think I get it, I pay what the market price is for a jump ticket. I don't set that price except with my feet and I often jump at one of the more expensive DZs in my area.

I only did a tandem as a second jump after my AFF 1, and I got a deep discount (I was grounded due to wind) so my DZ was very reasonable. I did pay full price for a tandem for a friend soon after, and of course I paid for AFF and subsequent student training. Phrases like "paying your dues" might appeal to you but they don't to me, even though by your standards you might consider that I paid them as a student. What the hell does that even mean "Paying your dues"? Are you implying that to get into this sport you need to supplement everyone else who's already in it when you're a student? That's absurd, and it's not even true IMHO. I don't think student rates are high, AFF is a lot of training & supervision and the expensive jumps take two highly qualified AFFIs. Quality training & getting into the sport is the overriding goal. A typical tandem jump has become a profit center of a different nature IMHO. Hey you can charge what you like but don't tell my I'm being supplemented because I don't turn the same profit margin as the customers getting reamed on tandem jumps.

I think most of your post is over the top especially w.r.t. unfounded assertions about tandem safety which is in fact statistically safer than fun jumping. Calling a drogue a bandaid for hard openings is like calling a slider a bandaid for hard openings. You reduce the discussion instantly to pejorative observations against a successful segment of our industry, making unfounded accusations against a practical working solution that has proven itself over countless jumps. One thing I do think is a problem however is the extortionate price of a tandem jump for people wanting to participate in the sport. It has always seemed pretty expensive to me. Why can't we have equitable pricing for all? Why must we suffer these claims that fun jumping is supplemented by tandem jumpers? (The obvious interpretation is they've been overcharging tandem customers for years, if the claim is true) That is a CHOICE that DZO's make, not me, I don't set your prices. I show up and pay for my jumps and I believe it is possible to operate a DZ at a profit at the rates I pay, I've waited often enough for a full load for one of my fun jumps when no tandems were around so the load could make money for the DZ. I pay for my jump tickets, and I paid for my training (and continue to do so) and usually I pay for pack jobs. I'm not supplemented by anyone, there's competition for fun jumpers where I am and I make my decision on where to jump on several criteria not just price. If we are supplemented by tandem jumpers (a somewhat dubious claim, although fewer loads would go up without them), that's a situation that has been allowed to develop for years by DZOs. In reality I think DZ's make a profit off fun jumpers but make more margin off tandems and they've made improvements to equipment & facilities around that business. It they wanted to maintain similar profits without tandem jumpers they'd have to charge a bit more, but they may not be able to in some places with competition, it's just a different business with different margins. Blaming fun jumpers because we don't produce the same profit margin as the tandem cash cow is a silly argument. The new profitable windfall of tandem business is not an excuse to blame fun jumping for lower margins. DZ's that have become tandem factories are simply pursuing the higher margin business exclusively but possibly missing out on profit, but their life is probably a lot easier for it. That's their right, I think it's contemtible because they require TIs etc and they generally evolve from the larger sport. It's not unreasonable to say that tandem factories are supplemented in many ways by a healthy larger sport and its years in development.

Most important thing AFAIK is get the slider right up and make sure it's in an open configuration with a little bit prodruding to catch air before you cover it up. I make sure the slider is open in all four axes before closing the tail around it and rolling. Keep the slider grommets in place when rolling & folding and whatever you do don't let them slip down. Try to keep the tail closed tight around the grommets throughout packing. I've heard conflicting opinions on rolling the nose, the DZ I learned at used to do this but they jumped Sabre 1s, I've been advised that for most canopies shoving the nose to the back of the canopy at elbow depth with a little shake to keep it in place is a good option. Opinions vary on this. I'm a relative newbie but I've heard of psycho packing, it's not a trash pack. Opinions seem to differ on whether it helps with opening, it may depend on the canopy but the consensus seems to be that it's just an easier pack for slippy zero-p canopies provided you don't screw up when turning the canopy over.

That was the scarecrow, the tin man didn't have a heart, just like us folks on the right