yobnoc

Cellophane X-D

I'm not convinced it's trolling. I think that word gets tossed around too much. I think Ron is definitely convinced of the things he says, and isn't just saying it to try to rile people up. True trolling would be saying outrageous things for the sole purpose of riling people up. Unfortunately, I think these are his actual opinions.

As a former believer, I can definitely say this is all bullshit.

It's called the Credulity Ring. For real though: it's just a "Special Pleading" logical fallacy because he cannot defend the indefensible. So instead, he claims he and his cohorts have a special power that you don't have.

???

Speaking of weasels...

I haven't heard any compelling argument from you that there is actually a legal basis to ban abortion, actually. All you've done is presented that there is a lobbying group that claims to be secular that opposes abortion. The point of disagreement is "when does personhood begin?" Also, on the "gish-gallop" accusation: can you point out the overwhelming amount of argument topics I employed without regard for the accuracy or strength of each argument? I know from previous posts that we agree on some issues. But you're projecting with the "weaseling out" part of your argument. In one breath you say you support church/state separation, but in the next you claim you don't have time to address the more difficult topic. Yet, I can scroll back through pages of long commentary from you just tonight that proves you do indeed have plenty of time. I won't even respond back, how about that? You just lay out your best case for secular reasons to enact laws that allow for legal discrimination against the gay community, and I'll be content to just let the words speak for themselves. Pinky swear! Don't be evasive, now... ;-)

I just re-read to be sure, but yeah. I specifically called out lawmakers (not lobbyists) who enact legislation based solely on their religious beliefs. Definitely didn't limit this to a talk about abortion rights, which I know is a hot-button issue for you. Soooooo...how bout them anti-gay laws? X-D

It's obvious now that there's a huge miscommunication that might be at the root of this misunderstanding. Lobbyists are gonna lobby, no doubt. But members of congress (the ones who actually turn proposed legislation into bills which then have the chance of becoming laws), should absolutely be impeached for gross negligence of their constitutional duty to leave their religious tenets at home or church where they belong. I'll freely admit that I might be to blame for this miscommunication, but in no way did I intend to convey that I think that lobbyist groups should be subject to some sort of impeachment. I can't even see how that would make sense. It's up to our lawmakers to represent their constituents as long as it is legally justified and constitutionally appropriate. In the case of abortion laws, it is unconstitutional (Roe) to make laws that knowingly violate the constitution. Yet here we are, watching state after state put laws they know to be unconstitutional on the books in hopes that the religious activist justices currently on the SC throw away judicial precedence and inflict their religious views on the entire country. Anywhoooo, you can insult all you want; you still haven't (and probably won't) address the overarching theme here because you're sooooo focused on right to life, but I'll be waiting for your justification of the elephant in the room that is LGBT inequality laws. What's the secular argument there? (jeopardy theme)

You make good points. Obviously I'm not an economist, else I wouldn't be humping away in a factory making connecting rods for heavy duty truck engines. It's a complicated issue, to be sure. The ruling class and the servile class are at odds right now. I have to believe this isn't as complicated as they would have us believe, however. The people who benefit the most are the ones standing in the way of change, and their money goes a long way. The best investment you can make in the U.S.A. is to buy a politician.

It's just crazy. You know how you get companies to come back to the US? Reinstate the corporate tax rate at 24%. lower it to 19% if they have half or more of their business here in the states, and 1% less for every 10% beyond that. And to qualify for interest-free loans from the fed they need to have at least 75% of their business done here.

I don't know. And neither do you. Since you brought up breathing (another vital function without which we cannot survive), the lungs aren't capable of inflating until ~week 25 of the gestational period. On your logic, someone could argue that is the beginning of life, couldn't they? Which pretty much falls in line with the generally accepted term "viability." The point at which a fetus could conceivably survive outside the womb.

I disagree with the premise. The opposite is non-existence. I can see what you're trying to do in the abstract here, but it kinda falls flat in practice. You could use the same appeal to emotion by saying "the opposite of this is a condom." Question: why is everyone so focused on a heartbeat?

Ahhhh yes. I see the point, however. Murder is no different than coveting your neighbor's new 'vette, I think is the point. That guy in Colorado that killed his wife and two daughters a while back and pretended they were "missing," - he just found Jesus apparently. I bet he'll be a good addition to heaven...

I'm simply at a loss of how to respond here. There's so many problematic things. As far as I'm aware, nobody in SPL takes an oath to uphold the Constitution, so they can do whatever they want to. I don't know how their membership structure works - maybe they have an internal process for impeachment; either way I don't really care. I don't think it falls under the umbrella of bigotry to criticize religion. Bad epistemology should be called out regardless of the number of adherents, or how "sacred" those ideas are considered. I'd be content to leave religion alone if they did so in return. You have the right to believe whatever you want, as long as it does no harm to anyone else! I notice you haven't addressed the myriad laws that allow for discrimination against LGBT people (the aforementioned harm that religion is doing to people in our country currently). That's a lot harder to defend and is an actual example of bigotry, so I don't blame you for dodging it. I'm pretty sure the abortion argument will continue to go on but we can boil it down to my favorite line from Jeff Lebowski: "Well that's just like, your opinion, man." Don't worry: I've got way too many skeletons in my closet to ever consider even running for "dog catcher," so you'll never have to make the painful choice of voting against me. :-P EDIT: I accidentally deleted the quote here, but I meant to reply to Coreece, in case that wasn't clear.

Which labels are you referring to?

Savage

Good one, pal.

Correct. The problem is that we both have the same goal: to minimize abortion rates, but only one side has come up with a method that actually works: the Choice side. What you're looking for isn't "budging," it's full and complete submission. What do my kids have to do with what we're talking about? My wife was on birth control up and until we were ready to have kids. Then, she went back on it after my son was born, then back off it when we were ready to have another, and our daughter was born. Both healthy, no problems whatsoever. That's the ideal, buddy. And I want everyone to be able to make those educated and informed decisions without having to worry about not being able to afford the birth control options that we were able to afford, thus minimizing abortion rates. Meanwhile, I know a woman who my wife was acquainted with years ago who found out she was 7 weeks pregnant (unplanned) a few days after her boyfriend beat her within an inch of her life. Rather than carry on the pregnancy and be tied to that criminal for the rest of her life, she decided to terminate the pregnancy and prosecute. My wife drove her to the clinic. Yeah man; we're not gonna agree on the best method here. There is a time and place where termination of pregnancy is the safest option for women.

OMG YES! Let's start by getting rid of "Abstinence only" Sex Ed, increase the subsidization of birth control, copy the California Comprehensive Sexual Health and HIV/AIDS Prevention Education Act at the Federal level (responsible for a 50% decline in teen pregnancy rates).

Abortion rates per 1,000 live births in the US. By the raw numbers, we're already there! The reason the rate went up is due to the decline in overall birth rate, I suspect, but I'm open to more information if there's something I'm missing. Ready to get to work on gun control? Didn't think so...

Shame the holy spook can't seem to interpret it the same to everyone, eh? "If you want to know what's wrong with Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Calvinism, Hypercalvinism, Neocalvinism, Southern Baptists, the Church of Christ, or the First Baptist Church of Memphis, you can go to the Second Baptist Church of Memphis or any other denomination." - Matt Dillahunty

Oh. Well, then, an edit is in order.

Is it? I'm not up to speed on the Hollywood news; I'm sure Coreece will know though.

Oh hey look! Data to support my specific claim! You should try this sometime Catholic, eh? 81% says "wouldn't matter" in their voting habits. Is it really a dumb-ass assumption about where you're from? You live in NoMI, right? That's what I was trying to clarify; not your complete residential history. Was I wrong about that? Do you still hang with all your famous Hollywood elites? Yacht trips with Tom Cruise? Cocktail parties with the Wachowski siblings? Also, there are about a dozen states that have so-called "religious freedom" bills. They flat-out allow for discrimination based on theistic beliefs. If you don't understand how they allow discrimination, insert the word "blacks" or "jews" in where you see "gay or lesbian" in the descriptions. I'm not going to do your homework for you. Also: why did you put quotes around "the appeasement of deities," when I never used that phrase? Talk about all over the place. Sheesh!