Soft handle pull force

[DJL 232]

This is in reference to the recent posts about soft pillows and pull-force, please do not bring up any other issues such as potential for flopping under the webbing. It’s my understanding that when someone gets a conversion to a soft handle that they then have twice the contact area (IF ALL VELCRO IS IN CONTACT). In addition, the Velcro no longer releases via tension, as it does when the D-ring breaks the bonds with a normal (perpendicular) force, but rather it is now a sheer force. In theory, this means that the force required to break the pillow from the pocket is now more than twice that of a D-handle.

Recently there was a fatality in Finland in which the investigating group determined that the individual was unable to pull the handle because it exceeded the 10kg (20lb) max for pull force because it was a soft handle. This resulted in the grounding of all rigs with soft handles. This seems like a pretty thoughtless process of policy vs. research. Couldn’t those rigs with soft handle just be inspected, modified, and tagged so that their pull force was less than 10kg?

When a rigger converts a rig to include a soft pillow reserve handle, do they check the pull-force? This is something that I’m interested in seeing on my rig. I’m pretty sure that the pull force on mine is much less that twenty pounds. I can remove it with just my wrist. Also, on my handle, there is only half the amount of Velcro as there is inside of the pocket.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[markbaur 0]

"Pull force" is the force required to extract the pin from the closing loop, not the force required to extract the handle from its pocket. I don't know of any standards for handle extraction forces.

It takes a surprisingly small amount of velcro to exceed a joint strength of 20 pounds when loaded in sheer, so if you go with a pillow-type reserve ripcord handle, you'll need to peel it up out of its pocket before trying to pull the ripcord cable itself.

Vector tandems have this double-velcro arrangement for both the cutaway and ripcord handles, and I think the other tandem rigs do too. Did tandem rigs in Finland get grounded too? What was the fix?

Mark

[craddock 0]

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It takes a surprisingly small amount of velcro to exceed a joint strength of 20 pounds when loaded in sheer, so if you go with a pillow-type reserve ripcord handle, you'll need to peel it up out of its pocket before trying to pull the ripcord cable itself.

Not until a few recent threads have I ever heard that you should "peel" a soft reserve handle before pulling it. I would think this has more to do with a faulty design of a particular rig than soft pillow handles in general. All of my reserve rides have been with a soft handle and I have had no problems with a quick, single motion pull. I would not trade my pillow handle in for anything as I feel I have more strength grabbing a large pillow than a 1/4"? diameter steel handle.

You should not have to peel a reserve handle in my opinion. I would be looking for a new rig if that is the case.

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[eWave 0]

If I remember correctly, investigation report of that Finnish fatality is now published. Soft pillow handles for reserves remains banned here in Finland.

[DJL 232]

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I don't know of any standards for handle extraction forces.

I figured as much but if someone is too weak via injury to exert 20 lb on the ripcord then I can't imagine they'd have any luck with the handle without peeling first.

eWave, how about the tandems?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[eWave 0]

I think that's for all rigs. The safety document that came after the fatality, that grounds soft pillow handles, doesn't speak of "solo" rigs or tandem rigs. There just reads (sorry for my bad translation): "Gears with velcrofasten soft reserve handles are grounded for the present. As soon as reserve handle is switched to metal one, you can jump it"

Haven't seen new safety document yet (don't know if it's published), but I know that soft handle remains banned.

[gus 1]

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You should not have to peel a reserve handle in my opinion. I would be looking for a new rig if that is the case.

I was taught my cutaway drills as "look reach grab peel punch" or something like that, the point is there was a "peel" in there somewhere. If that's the case with a velcro cutaway pad why wouldn't it be the case with a velcro reserve pad?

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[craddock 0]

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It’s my understanding that when someone gets a conversion to a soft handle that they then have twice the contact area

I believe you are misunderstood. I have not seen a pillow handle (either side) that has hook velcro on one side and loop on the other. Unless I am misunderstanding what you said

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In addition, the Velcro no longer releases via tension, as it does when the D-ring breaks the bonds with a normal (perpendicular) force, but rather it is now a sheer force. In theory, this means that the force required to break the pillow from the pocket is now more than twice that of a D-handle

Now I just went and pulled the reserve handle on three rigs. A Vector II with a metal handle, A sweethog with a metal handle and a Micron 304 with a soft pillow. The difference is negligable. It takes merely a few pounds for either. If the D handle is 2 pounds and the pillow is 4 pounds- that would be twice as much. It is still only a few pounds.

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[craddock 0]

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If that's the case with a velcro cutaway pad why wouldn't it be the case with a velcro reserve pad?

Because when you need your reserve out their should not be a two step procedure to get it out.

Not with my gear anyway. You may feel differently

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[gus 1]

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Because when you need your reserve out their should not be a two step procedure to get it out.

I was thinking more why wouldn't it be the case with a velcro reserve pad, rather than why shoudn't it be the case. I think if you jump a soft reserve handle you have to accept that it will require peeling in the same way that your cutaway does.

Perhaps I missunderstood your original post but it sounded like you were implying that a soft reserve handle only requires peeling if it's been designed badly. If that is the case (and maybe it is) then why do cutaway pads require peeling?

Edited to add: I have a soft reserve handle on my Teradrop Superfly so I'm interested in what people think.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[craddock 0]

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If that is the case (and maybe it is) then why do cutaway pads require peeling?

I do not believe they do. I was never taught that in my first jump course and I have not taught it myself.
My cutaways have all been on new rigs and I have not ever peeled a cutaway handle. I just asked my fiance if she has ever peeled first and she has not either. Nor was she taught to in her FJC.

I can see where technique could play a factor in this though and why some may feel the need to peel first. This is also why a soft pillow reserve mey not be a good option for every jumper.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[gus 1]

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I do not believe they do.

Ok, that explains it.
Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[DJL 232]

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I believe you are misunderstood. I have not seen a pillow handle (either side) that has hook velcro on one side and loop on the other. Unless I am misunderstanding what you said

I'll check my rig when I get home. When I got it switched from a D ring to a soft handle I think velcro was put on both sides of the handle so that there is a velcro connection on the inside and out. Regardless, and in reference to:

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If the D handle is 2 pounds and the pillow is 4 pounds- that would be twice as much. It is still only a few pounds.

I agree, I haven't measured the force on mine but I can't imagine it being more than a few pounds. On the incident in Finland which prompted their ban they said that the force required to extract the handle in "any straight direction" exceeded 20 lbs.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=508246;search_string=incident%20finland;#508246

So, how could this possibly exceed 20 lbs unless there was something specific about this rig. I think that Finland is being held hostage by a group who just likes to flex their muscle. As I said, I'm not a rigger, but I'm an engineer, and regardless of what type of handle it is, you can make it so that the force does not exceed whatever setpoint.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[sundevil777 94]

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Not until a few recent threads have I ever heard that you should "peel" a soft reserve handle before pulling it.

I thought that the need to peel first was common knowledge for the 23 years that I've been jumping. In my opinion, it should be taught this way.

There are instances where people have had difficulty pulling a cutaway or soft reserve handle without peeling it off first.

Really, I am suprised that this is not known by everyone.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Hooknswoop 19]

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If I remember correctly, investigation report of that Finnish fatality is now published. Soft pillow handles for reserves remains banned here in Finland.

Are they banning pillow cutaway handles also?

A pillow cutaway handle requires the same amount of force to peel, but isn't limited to 22 lbs (in the U.S.) to pull like the reserve handle is.

Derek

[craddock 0]

I was not aware that soft reserve pillows have been around for 23 years.

I have always thought that the reason some people peel a cutaway handle is because of the combined force during hard line twists of the velcro plus the tension on the cables simultaneoulsy. This should be much less of a problem on a reserve.

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In my opinion, it should be taught this way

Taught when? In a FJC when they are not using a soft pillow reserve handle?

I just checked my Wings manual. While they do recommend peeling the cut-away prior to "full arm extention" they skip that step with the reserve handle.
Huh!

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I have always thought that the reason some people peel a cutaway handle is because of the combined force during hard line twists of the velcro plus the tension on the cables simultaneoulsy. This should be much less of a problem on a reserve.

Removing the pillow handle from the Velcro, either cutaway or reserve requires the same amount of force. The reserve at that point is limited to 22 lbs. + seal. The cutaway handle is limited to 22 lbs. for TSO testing, which does not include spinning line twists with the excess cutaway cables included in the twists. This means cutaway forces can be much higher than reserve rip cord forces, after the Velcro is pulled.

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Taught when? In a FJC when they are not using a soft pillow reserve handle?

Yes, in the FJC, when they are using a pillow cutaway handle.

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I just checked my Wings manual. While they do recommend peeling the cut-away prior to "full arm extention" they skip that step with the reserve handle.

For any pillow handle, the Velcro should be peeled. Sunrise rigging may have omitted peeling the Velcro before pulling the reserve handle not thinking about pillow reserve handles.

Derek

[sundevil777 94]

edit - Hook beat me to this, mostly a repeat of his post...

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I was not aware that soft reserve pillows have been around for 23 years.

I was assuming that soft reserve pillows have as much velcro as cutaway pillows.

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I have always thought that the reason some people peel a cutaway handle is because of the combined force during hard line twists of the velcro plus the tension on the cables simultaneoulsy. This should be much less of a problem on a reserve.

I think you should always peel first, and reserves can take more force to pull than the cutaway handle.

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Taught when? In a FJC when they are not using a soft pillow reserve handle?

Some do, some don't. Whenever it is that you transition to gear that uses a pillow, this is how you should be taught, it was emphasized when I first jumped a 3-ring system.

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I just checked my Wings manual. While they do recommend peeling the cut-away prior to "full arm extention" they skip that step with the reserve handle.

Seems like an unintentional omission to me. Did they specifically address the pillow reserve handle? Maybe the manual was written without thinking of this point-for metal handles only.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[craddock 0]

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Removing the pillow handle from the Velcro, either cutaway or reserve requires the same amount of force.

Possibly

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The reserve at that point is limited to 22 lbs. + seal. The cutaway handle is limited to 22 lbs. for TSO testing, which does not include spinning line twists with the excess cutaway cables included in the twists. This means cutaway forces can be much higher than reserve rip cord forces, after the Velcro is pulled

And can be even higher if trying to seperate velcro and pull cables simultaneoulsy?

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Yes, in the FJC, when they are using a pillow cutaway handle

Sure for cutaway. Someone responded to my post that I had never heard of peeling a soft RESERVE Handle until recently. It was then implied it should be taught this way. I do not teach my student to peel their reserve handle in a FJC.

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For any pillow handle, the Velcro should be peeled. Sunrise rigging may have omitted peeling the Velcro before pulling the reserve handle not thinking about pillow reserve handles.

I have never peeled a handle and I have used nothing but pillows. Shame on me! I really believe this is a matter of technique. I would not have a pillow handle if I thought I had to peel first and then pull to activate my reserve.

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[craddock 0]

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I think you should always peel first, and reserves can take more force to pull than the cutaway handle.

I think people should do what works best for them.

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Removing the pillow handle from the Velcro, either cutaway or reserve requires the same amount of force.

Possibly

Not possibly. There is the same amount of Velcro on a cutaway pillow as there is on a reserve pillow, hence the same amount of force to peel either handle.

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The reserve at that point is limited to 22 lbs. + seal. The cutaway handle is limited to 22 lbs. for TSO testing, which does not include spinning line twists with the excess cutaway cables included in the twists. This means cutaway forces can be much higher than reserve rip cord forces, after the Velcro is pulled

And can be even higher if trying to seperate velcro and pull cables simultaneoulsy?

Right, higher for either the cutaway pillow or a reserve pillow, hence the peel first, then pull.

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Yes, in the FJC, when they are using a pillow cutaway handle

Sure for cutaway. Someone responded to my post that I had never heard of peeling a soft RESERVE Handle until recently. It was then implied it should be taught this way. I do not teach my student to peel their reserve handle in a FJC.

Of course not, not for a metal reserve handle. But do you teach them to peel the cutaway handle before pulling it? It doesn’t take a huge leap of imagination for an experienced jumper, initially trained to peel their cutaway pillow before pulling it, to figure out they should peel their reserve pillow (if they have one) before pulling it, for the same reasons.

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For any pillow handle, the Velcro should be peeled. Sunrise rigging may have omitted peeling the Velcro before pulling the reserve handle not thinking about pillow reserve handles.

I have never peeled a handle and I have used nothing but pillows. Shame on me! I really believe this is a matter of technique. I would not have a pillow handle if I thought I had to peel first and then pull to activate my reserve.

I have several cutaway and reserve rides using nothing but pillows and haven’t peeled a handle either. That doesn’t mean that peeling the handle can’t make the difference between being able to pull the handle or not. When combined with twisted risers and no riser inserts, peeling the handle may make the difference between being able to cutaway or not. For a tight reserve, a not so strong jumper may have a difficult time pulling a reserve pillow without peeling it first. If you don’t need to peel it, great, but it is better to peel it and not need to than not peel it and need to, for either a cutaway handle or a reserve handle.

Derek

[sundevil777 94]

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I think people should do what works best for them.

You might ask some jumpers that have survived a long time in this sport and that you greatly respect for their opinion on this issue. I would be very surprised if they did not recommend peeling first. Of course it doesn't mean that you must peel first, just that it is a good practice.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[craddock 0]

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Not possibly. There is the same amount of Velcro on a cutaway pillow as there is on a reserve pillow, hence the same amount of force to peel either handle.

There is the same amount of velcro when using a D-handle also yet we don't peel them.

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For any pillow handle, the Velcro should be peeled

and then

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I have several cutaway and reserve rides using nothing but pillows and haven’t peeled a handle either

The first statement seems pretty matter of fact yet you don't even follow your own advice. I think we agree on our own prodedures. Why the agrument? I never recommended against peeling. I believe a jumper should do what is best for them.

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If you don’t need to peel it, great, but it is better to peel it and not need to than not peel it and need to, for either a cutaway handle or a reserve handle

I have pulled my reserve at around 500 feet. Would it have been better to peel it even if I did not need it?
I still believe jumpers should do what is best for them.

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[skycat 0]

As a small girl with not as much upper body strength as Hook has, when I got my Mirage I was worried about being able to peal and pull the handle so he added a bit of hook velcro to the bottom of my handle to kind of "prime" it so it's easier to peal.

Fly it like you stole it!

[markbaur 0]

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There is the same amount of velcro when using a D-handle also yet we don't peel them.

Actually, we do.

The metal handle peels the velcro apart. That's different than loading the velcro in shear, which is what you do when you pull a soft handle without twisting it.

Mark