linestretch 0 #1 November 11, 2003 I just took over the riggin here and have 6 sigma tandems to take care of. On all but one, the pins are bent slightly, and I am wondering if anyone else has had this same problem or not. It doesn't appear that the bend would cause any additional pull force required to fire the reserve, but it is a concern. One of the rigs is brand new, and has a thicker pin on it, and is still bent. Any thoughts anyone????anyone???? take a look at the pics and see for youself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #2 November 11, 2003 QuoteI just took over the riggin here and have 6 sigma tandems to take care of. On all but one, the pins are bent slightly, and I am wondering if anyone else has had this same problem or not. It doesn't appear that the bend would cause any additional pull force required to fire the reserve, but it is a concern. One of the rigs is brand new, and has a thicker pin on it, and is still bent. Any thoughts anyone????anyone???? take a look at the pics and see for youself. i'd be calling relative workshop, and see what they have to say about it. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 November 11, 2003 Send those pics to RWS, they will get back to you quickly I'm sure. I read somewhere that they are going to a thicker pin, so that is probably what is on the new one. Let us know what they say. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 November 11, 2003 Yup, it happened to one of our Sigmas. We ordered new pins and replaced it. The pull force was the same on the bent pin, strangely enough. I'm going to tell our rig owner/rigger about it, since we thought it was a one time deal with us, just "one of those things."--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #5 November 11, 2003 Either email or call RWS...that looks like a serious potential problem to me. Even if they don't require any additional pull force, bending metal weakens it. Bill Booth frequents the board, hopefully he will see this soon and respond. You can PM him - screen name billbooth. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egons 0 #6 November 11, 2003 check pm "Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #7 November 11, 2003 Is the rigger packing these using a positive leverage device? If so they *could* be generating extreme pressures on the pins. Has the pull force been measured? In watching the usage at one of the DZ's to get some of the earlier Sigmas, the lighter weight pins has some bending problems to about the degree your picture indicate. Never appeared to be a problem signifigant enough to create a hard/no pull. The reserve packjobs on thes rigs has a settling issue where after a few weeks the rig would have to be opened and the closing loops shortened by anywhere from 1/2 to 1 full inch. Could it be that riggers might be using a lot of foce to close the rigs becaues of traped air, and then the pull forces measured are less later as the pressure comes off the loop?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #8 November 11, 2003 Another data point: My DZ in Ontario, Canada has six sigmas too. 1 1/2 years old. At least one also has a slightly bent pin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #9 November 11, 2003 I don't think the leverage tool was being used. And even if it was, I don't think it's enough to cause these issues. I have contacted RWS, and they are working with me, but I wanted some outside input. Thanx guys...and gals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #10 November 11, 2003 We have had the same problem at The Ranch and our Master Parachute Riiger was told to just "bend them back" by Relative Workshop. That sounded fishy to me so I checked with RWS and they repeated the same direction to me. I hate the idea, but if that is what the manufacturer says, then so be it. -tom buchananTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #11 November 12, 2003 My concern over bending them back is repeated bends. Once may not matter, but if it bends again, and is bent back again, etc. If it doesn't increase the pull force or cause any problems, why not just leave it? My experience on tandems is that the loop will break before there is enough force to bend the pin. I try to make them tight because they compress so much more than sport rigs. If I have the time, I'll compress the PC and temp pin it, give it a day for the spring to compress the pack job, then replace the loop with a slightly shorter one and close it. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #12 November 12, 2003 QuoteMy concern over bending them back is repeated bends. Once may not matter, but if it bends again, and is bent back again, etc. Definitely a problem. Anybody that has worked with metal knows that bending metal just once decreases the strength of it, and repeated bending(especially back and forth) severely decreases the strength. Now, maybe RWS isn't worried about it because they know the pins are strong enough to handle it, but why chance it? This could be the result of a bad batch of ripcords, since it doesn't seem to be extremely widespread. How close are the DOM's on the rigs/ripcords in question? Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #13 November 12, 2003 4 are about a year to a year and half old. And one is only 2 months old. The newer one has the thicker (11 gauge) pin, and it's bent. RWS is sending me some new pins at no cost, and has been very helpful. I'll be sending the old pins back to them so they can investigate it from there. thanx for all the input.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #14 November 12, 2003 What type of aircraft on they jumped out of? Is it possible it is a movement in the plane issue? Tandem rigs are heavy and cumbersum and it is easy to brush againt the aircraft. Just trying to think prevention for the future. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #15 November 12, 2003 I was thinking of that too, but don't think it's the problem. It's a Brazilian plane, "Bandarandi" (not sure of the spelling). I'm pretty conscience of where the tandem instructors sit to see if the reserve pin is being pressed against the side of the plane, and I haven't noticed it yet. The instructors sit on the floor, (students get their own seats) and the plane climbs soo damn fast, that we are generally facing the tail, leaning against the bottom of the rigs. The door is pretty small, like a king air, but our students are generally pretty small too. That is a possibility though. The cypres window in all but one of the rigs are cracked. Maybe from smacking the top of the door on the way out. But, no problems with the cypres's. Just another thought...hmmmmmmmmy pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 November 12, 2003 Quote. If I have the time, I'll compress the PC and temp pin it, give it a day for the spring to compress the pack job, then replace the loop with a slightly shorter one and close it. I like that idea, putting a bunch of packing weights on it overinght isn't a bad idea either.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #17 November 12, 2003 To Riggers; What if one could control (within 1-2%) the force applied with a leverage device so one could be certain not to exceed the forces stated? Would you buy it? It seems that it would make things a lot easier and exact for closing reserves. thanks, take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #18 November 12, 2003 QuoteI like that idea, putting a bunch of packing weights on it overinght isn't a bad idea either. Yep, I do that too, plus, and this is the real key, I put a weight bag under the reserve, directly under the plate for the closing loop. This work for closing the rig too, takes the pressure off the closing loop. Otherwise you are using the pull up cord and closing loop to pull the closing loop plate into the reserve. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #19 November 12, 2003 If the reserve flap windows are getting broken, they are hitting something. That may be the cause of the bent pins. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #20 November 12, 2003 QuoteTo Riggers; What if one could control (within 1-2%) the force applied with a leverage device so one could be certain not to exceed the forces stated? Would you buy it? It seems that it would make things a lot easier and exact for closing reserves. thanks, The final pull force on the reserve pin is dependant on the closing loop length and how the bulk was distributed in the reserve free-bag and container. I have found that on most rigs the closing loop will break before getting too high of a pull force. I maintain a list of reserves, containers, and the corresponding closing loop length and pull force. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #21 November 12, 2003 it's not the reserve flap window, it's the cypres window that's cracked. Although, the reserve flap window's are dinged up a little. These rigs get used a LOT. Each container has roughly 2,000 jumps each. Some more, some less.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #22 November 12, 2003 I maintain a list of reserves, containers, and the corresponding closing loop length and pull force.*** I'm a slacker when I came to doing this, although I do know some lengths to work with. You wouldn't happen to have that list handy????my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #23 November 12, 2003 So far (in my limited rigging experience) I've come to the decision that I need less tools, not more.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #24 November 12, 2003 Quoteit's not the reserve flap window, it's the cypres window that's cracked. Oops, so much for that theory..... Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #25 November 12, 2003 QuoteI'm a slacker when I came to doing this, although I do know some lengths to work with. You wouldn't happen to have that list handy???? LOL, sorry, I keep that list list very closely controlled, liability reasons. It definately takes a while to complie the thurough list. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
