If You can't pack...

[BoogeyMan 0]

+1......
The first look up at the canopy should tell a jumper if the issue is serious or an easily corrected weird opening. That main is clearly un-flyable. While I am not a big fan of going back into free fall with only one canopy, this guy played around way too long before cutting away. The main could have spun up into a down plane. My 2 cents.

[grimmie 173]

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If you have a problem you can not easily fix, do not fuck around with it...what if it gets considerably worse and puts you in a position where you can no longer cut away. Or what happens if you have a problem with plan B and need to do some in air rigging on THAT parachute in order to survive.

Great advice! And non snarky too! See VB, it's possible.

I guess I am tainted with my only cutaway experience. I was ridiculed to death for cutting away so high. 2000 ft, which was my hard deck at the time. (Low jump numbers)

Ridiculed? I don't know what your malfunction was but chopping low has killed many jumpers. You should really examine where you jump and why they ridiculed you for living.

When you experience a spinning malfunction all of your concentration goes up to the canopy. Remember there are other folks in the sky you could fly into easily. You could also fly into the ground easily.

And to Da Vincie flies. You would be the same guy here crying if DSE told a guy to go away and not jump a wingsuit. Damn, we sure don't want to tread on someone's right to jump, now, do we????

[lurch 0]

(sigh)
Spot... I can shed a little light on the reasons the packjob was being done like that.
I think.
IF it was being done deliberately for the same reasons -I- do.
I bet I'm going to get torn to pieces by wolves for this but I'll say it anyway.
I've been using a similar technique for years now. Properly done the long unstowed line trick is PART of my own personal packjob which has so far been 100% linetwist-proof for well over 1000 jumps now. (But I am also not using a stowless bag and wouldn't pack like this if I had one... no stows, no need to adapt the packjob to eliminate problems caused by them. Which is what this packjob is.)
Granted, I'll NEVER claim its a magic bullet or anything and I could get twists tomorrow just because reality feels like punking me to prove me wrong but so far since I started packing this way its been a perfect score.... and you know the kind of flying I do and the fallrates I specialize in. My line twist mal rate went from 2-3 out of every 5 to 0/1000 which is how I know I understood the physics and events happening behind me correctly.

Worst twist I've had since I worked it out after I wrecked under my reserve out back 4 years ago has been 180 degrees, single half-twist, risers crossed behind my helmet caused by radically butchered body position on opening, which self corrected before I even had a chance to start doing anything about it. For awhile I was teaching the packjob to my immediate wingsuit crowd around here as a way to prevent line twists. After awhile the effects of this packjob started to attract attention, since the general wingsuit population gets line twists constantly and I don't. So when people asked me about it, I answered truthfully and told them how I do it.

I'm not the only one who has figured this setup out, though, and this doesn't surprise me. Somebody using an (improperly configured) variant on the same packjob. Probably without fully understanding the reasons, or the limitations.

I do not allow anyone else to pack for me though, I do ALL my own packjobs... with all due respect (and thats a lot) to packers, I would not trust a packer to get this packjob done right and done the EXACT same way every time. My dominant priority when packing this way is to be VERY meticulous and particular about the packjob.

I've mostly quit teaching it in light of how many other people are getting in trouble with it. For it to work the user has to understand it.

The long unstowed line serves two purposes which work with each other.
1: the line bites are very small. I typically only have a thumb's knuckle worth of line sticking out beyond the stow band. The intention is to make the stows pop loose very easily. Picture a Dbag with a crude student-style packjob with big fat 3 inch line bites: The plucking force needed to unstow any given loop is a lot, and goes on for some time as the line is pulled free from the band. Under low fallrate wingsuit conditions and with the Dbag being extracted from the rig in a low energy state (I.e. without the quick sharp yank of a 120 mph freefall deployment) big fat line bites make the Dbag tumble and yank all over the place while the PC is pulling the whole thing out.

2: and this interacts with #1: 3 feet of unstowed line plus the length of the risers means by the time the Dbag hits the ends of the lines (3-4 feet off your back while all the stows are still stowed) the bag has already accelerated, undisturbed, to a speed at which by the time the lines DO start pulling at the first stow, its too late to spin or tumble the Dbag. And again, the small bites ensure those asymmetrical side to side plucking forces are small.... certainly smaller than the inertia the bag has picked up by the time the first stow hits. Certainly not enough to disturb the path of the mass of the bag.

BUT...
This also goes with packing grommet up!
The Dbag does not rotate but lifts almost straight up off my back. If I pitch in full flight maybe it rotates about 45 degrees max. When I pack I free-coil the excess in 3 neat loops on the bottom of the container and carefully PLACE the bag on top of it being very careful not to snag lines with the closing loop attachment point.

If somebody is packing this way but putting the Dbag in and twisting it so the bridle attachment point is up against the bottom of the reserve tray its GOING to grab a massive fistful of those lines and make a BIG snagprone mess of it both when the bag is initially placed, and later again when it is deployed. Packed grommet-to-reserve that Dbag is being yanked through a 135 degree rotation while sitting on a coiled pile of lines or while in-process of being lifted off of it as the container opens. Guaranteed to scoop up a big mess of line on the stows themselves. Snag City.

If the rig cannot be packed grommet-up it cannot be packed this way at all. Or shouldn't be.

I had considered writing an article for Parachutist after some urging by others that I should share what I know since it DOES work so well... but I eventually decided not to. Partially because I didn't want to deal with the flak that I would attract for teaching such a packjob (imagine the furious responses and condemnations I'd get from older jumpers/instructors in the "letters" section the next month... they'd eat me alive) and partially because I do not want to be held responsible when somebody else does it wrong and gets into deep shit.
Just like this incident.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[airtwardo 6]

I bet I'm going to get torn to pieces by wolves for this but I'll say it anyway.

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Ummm...I've been doing it that way for years too.


Maybe not quite 3 feet worth but pretty close, I can't remember the last time I had any kind of line twist.


Years ago some of us use to 'free-pack' ~all the lines coiled in the container, having only one stow on a strap around the nose. No bag what-so-ever.

Openings were ALWAYS on heading with zero line twist...a little 'brisk' sometimes, but no line twist!

It's something I did with a 252 para-foil with the spider slider too...with a pilot chute attached to the slider, any bag spin as the lines deployed would sometimes delay the opening for a few minutes.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jclalor 12]

I hate to ask a stupid question (although some say I have a real knack for it) and posting 45 minutes after taking an ambien. I timed him chopping and then extracting silver in just a little over 2 seconds. Is that way too long? I also noticed when he went silver, he felt down his webbing until he felt the handle, is that a bad technique?

[airtwardo 6]

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I hate to ask a stupid question (although some say I have a real knack for it) and posting 45 minutes after taking an ambien. I timed him chopping and then extracting silver in just a little over 2 seconds. Is that way too long? I also noticed when he went silver, he felt down his webbing until he felt the handle, is that a bad technique?

No such thing as a stupid question.

No, 2 seconds isn't too long...unless you don't have 2 seconds


I think the major discussion is in regard to the 45 seconds he took trying to right an uncorrectable malfunction.

Why he didn't have a hand on the reserve handle prior to cutting away is a possible point for discussion. I always have one hand on each handle...others do not.

I can't tell from the video if he is in fact 'just' feeling for the handle, or looking at it and sliding his hand down.

However feeling for and not looking at the handle is something I would discourage no matter what procedures you use. (one hand per handle or two hands per handle)



...now pass the ambien!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[grimmie 173]

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I hate to ask a stupid question (although some say I have a real knack for it) and posting 45 minutes after taking an ambien. I timed him chopping and then extracting silver in just a little over 2 seconds. Is that way too long? I also noticed when he went silver, he felt down his webbing until he felt the handle, is that a bad technique?

Ambien...spending too much time in Speakers Corner dude!!!

[DSE 3]

I have no issue with him losing my handles. He paid for them.
I have no issue with someone chopping one of my canopies at any altitude when deemed necessary to save a life. It's happened a few times. That's why we jump two.

I take issue with;
~crazy unstable flight (both cameras on his head indicate as much)
~lazy left arm at deployment on a big-ass wingsuit
~geeking the camera at deployment (causes linetwists on most of his jumps)
~reaching for risers rather than letting the deployment breathe (common problem with low-time/big suit people)
~not being able to recognize a lineover, line routing problem, vs linetwists (this was clearly a non-landable canopy before he reached for the risers)
~playing with the problem for so long. It's not viewable on the compressed version of the file, but he is at 550M/1800' before pulling the release handle (see attached). Yes, 1800' is a fine hard-deck for an experienced skydiver, but this is an unfamiliar rig, unfamiliar DZ, and very low time on a large wingsuit
~No sweep of release handle. It stays attached until the reserve comes out.
~no location of reserve handle, no hand on handle, and struggling to find it. This can be ameliorated by doing several practice EP's on any rental/new rig. It should be part/parcel of any rental process-learn where the handles are.
~Landing 40' away from a good, level (obviously plowed, clear level vs high weeds/bad furrows).
~no flare (fortunate it wasn't a high wingload).

We had previously discussed the wisdom of flying a large wingsuit with such little currency, few overall WS jumps, the fact that he's never packed himself (other than 1 packjob for license), and the number of jumps with very bad linetwists that he's experienced. We'd had a long conversation about instruction, as it seems his home DZ has had several incidents, three fatals in not-so-distant past.
Hopefully this jump taught him a valuable lesson. I'm sure it's taught others a lesson.
As messed up as it is, two cameras make it useful to show lesser experienced people what can really happen up there.

[jonmurrell 0]

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~lazy left arm at deployment on a big-ass wingsuit
~geeking the camera at deployment (causes linetwists on most of his jumps)

I thought the whole stop flying, shut-down deployment method had mostly gone away... don't think that serve him well in someplace with big rocks.

Two cameras for a solo? From an airplane?

This isn't flying, its falling with style.

[DSE 3]

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I thought the whole stop flying, shut-down deployment method had mostly gone away... don't think that serve him well in someplace with big rocks.

What does a symmetrical pull have to do with stop flying, shut down deployment?
That aside, he's skydiving, not base.

[lurch 0]

Thanks, Twardo. Since rumor has it you're 9 months older than dirt and have been skydiving since 1874 I feel a bit better. I'm not reinventing the wheel, the old guys figured this stuff out long ago.

Totally doesn't surprise me but its reassuring. I'm not being the asshole promoting a stupid method I'm just rediscovering techniques you guys used to use.

Funny thing is I didn't even look at the student's performance first time I watched the video. All I watched was the canopy and my brain went into analysis mode, thinking of the mal itself and how I'd deal with it and how it could wind up like that. Releasing the brakes was a REALLY bad idea. I woulda got rid of it the second I saw a line crossing the lineset from one side through or around the other side's slider/toggle area. I've watched and studied enough mal videos to know if a line is crossing the slider and the gap between left and right linesets at an angle, its fuckin' tangled to shit and it ain't gonna be fixable or landable. I wouldn't even try.

I think this video and the behavior in it are a good illustration of a case of somebody who -looks- ready, seems ready and is equipped as if he -were- ready to fly wingsuits... and isn't.

I very strongly urge my own crowd to do their own packjobs and learn their gear really well. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I think in something this gear intensive, if you want to get into it long term and be able to manage the risks you just have to get real personal with the gear and understand its subtleties, and manage them yourself.

Doesn't necessarily mean becoming a rigger, but thoroughly learning and mastering manipulation of the factors influencing a good deployment has been key to having a relatively incidentless wingsuit career, at least for me. 2500 wingsuit flights, total of 1 cutaway.
You get to try minute subtle variations on every packjob, fine tune the values from jump to jump... a little more or less line bite, a little further forward or back on the slider, etc, and actually build up a mental database of what packjobs do what. A guy with 400 jumps and 5 packjobs knows NONE of this and can have very little practical understanding of how his gear actually works or what caused his last set of line twists. He can't even begin to diagnose it without outside video and he's still not going to have a clue. He can blindly follow recommendations and instructions... "Go get longer bridle/bigger PC/docile canopy" and hopefully be somewhat safe on blind faith and obedience but not understand how or why these things matter or what to do when it doesn't work as expected. Thats no way to get into wingsuit... guy needs to be a lot more interested in what he's doing if he wants to succeed.
Incidents don't prevent themselves.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[lurch 0]

...and Spot, you never said... what DID actually cause this? This looks a lot like a stepthrough complete with twisted risers but that doesn't account for the crossed lines. I'm wondering did he maybe bounce the Dbag and lines off his tailwing and get the Dbag through a few slack lines you were hinting about?

...@JMurrell: That technique hasn't gone away... some need it and use it, some don't. I started that way. Eventually I used to pitch in full flight with medium-large suits. When I worked up to homemade megasuits and Tony suits I reverted back to collapsing wings and scrunching down really small like I MEAN it... the burble off some of the biggest wings with a light slow falling pilot can just plain prevent deployment at all if I don't make myself really small a second after the throw and delete that damn burble.

I've tested full flight deployments on an S-bird and even with a medium long 9 foot bridle and somewhat oversized PC for this canopy if I don't get small it will tow it to the ground. So these days my pull technique is throw, and scrunch as small as I can. Not as flashy as open winged pitching but a lot more reliable and much safer. If I were gonna BASE the suit and had to pitch in full flight with no allowable plummet factor I'd go with a gigantic 30+ inch PC and a 12 foot bridle but this isn't base, and so I choose to plummet a bit.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[StefB 0]

At least he gave you the video footage to make a good S&T video.

[theonlyski 3]

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...and Spot, you never said... what DID actually cause this? This looks a lot like a stepthrough complete with twisted risers but that doesn't account for the crossed lines. I'm wondering did he maybe bounce the Dbag and lines off his tailwing and get the Dbag through a few slack lines you were hinting about?

See post 18. I can't make a clicky to it on firefox.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[fasted3 0]

Stated the lines were walked out properly, but with an inexperienced packer, I wonder if that's true. I've seen people walk out the lines without really understanding what they were looking for. One guy jumped a step through several times.
Also curious which DZ's ban wingsuits. List them please so I won't go there.
Agree this should have been chopped immediately.
Good learning thread.

But what do I know?

[champu 1]

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It's an Optimum 160 reserve loaded about 1:1. He normally flies a 135 Storm. In my rental rig, he was flying a 150 Storm. Almost the same canopy.

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Rig is mine (we don't allow ellipticals like Katanas on wingsuits, and that's what he had.

I'm confused about him normally flying a storm 135 and yet having a katana in his rig (which Elsinore apparently doesn't allow with wingsuits? How does that work?)

[DSE 3]

That's not a Katana. It's a Storm 150.
I should know...it's my rig he's using.
My wording in the post you copied is confusing...I see that by your context. mea culpa

[champu 1]

oops, my question wasn't clear either...

If he normally flies a storm 135, why did he show up to the dropzone with a katana? (that he wasn't allowed to jump)

[DSE 3]

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oops, my question wasn't clear either...

If he normally flies a storm 135, why did he show up to the dropzone with a katana? (that he wasn't allowed to jump)

I have no idea. Perhaps he'd borrowed a rig? Didn't get into it. It was easy; "we'd really prefer you not fly that here, given your experience, suit, etc... There are rigs more suitable."

(FWIW, we have several PD canopies for people that only have ellipticals; we won't allow an FFC on an elliptical).

We had a different guy show here last weekend with a Katana and a Stealth 2, as well. No FFC, never jumped a wing. Sometimes it's easier to just say no or offer a fast alternative than dig into the mire.

[feuergnom 22]

I just reread the whole thing and I have to say: no style points for DSE
so a guy shows up, rents a rig, fucks up and you come over here, post his video without much explanation and wait for peolple to comment/slam/flame whatever. only after that you come out with the whole story.
you would have scored much better had you educated the jumper in question on place in time and in a professional way.....

bad stylie points for me too because thats my second answer to that fucked up rant of yours.

note to self: skip "discussions" like that in the future

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[DSE 3]

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I just reread the whole thing and I have to say: no style points for DSE
so a guy shows up, rents a rig, fucks up and you come over here, post his video without much explanation and wait for peolple to comment/slam/flame whatever. only after that you come out with the whole story.
you would have scored much better had you educated the jumper in question on place in time and in a professional way.....

bad stylie points for me too because thats my second answer to that fucked up rant of yours.

note to self: skip "discussions" like that in the future

WTF are you talking about?
-It's a useful training video. I asked him if I could post it as such before I did. I put text in to keep it light and to assure watermarking.

-He was told in advance he was jumping a wingsuit that most experienced people would agree he was not qualified for. In his country, they apparently have different standards. Fine...he wasn't prevented from jumping it, as much as I'd preferred he not jump it. He had linetwists on each and every jump, and had a less-than-ideal distance from the horizontal stab on exit. He'd never jumped an Otter before, so a smaller suit would have been a better option, at least at first.

-He was warned in advance of the problems of his canopy/rig and offered an alternative. Not my thing to expend resources chasing a canopy down in the lake.

-He made it clear he cannot pack and wouldn't jump if a packer wasn't available. Packer screwed up, knows it, learned from it, knows the video is posted, and agrees it's a useful video exercise. It's rare we have two camera angles of a real malfunction, isn't it?

How -exactly- was the jumper not educated?
How -exactly- was it not professionally delivered to him?
Where is this "rant" you mention?

[feuergnom 22]

touché???? feeling a bit touchy and fairskinned?

you are in the privileged position to get 2000+ jumps from scratch, at least to ratings and a gazillion postings in 6 years - good for you. in most of your posts you're trying to be the rolemodel student for almost everything and you seem to know everything. had you provided all the info in the opening post the whole story would definitly look different. I stand by my words: no style points. over & out.

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[fasted3 0]

OK, it was a packer and not the jumper. Still wondering if the lines were properly walked out because I just don't see what went wrong, ie: how did the pc get under the lines?
Also waiting for the list of DZ's that ban WS. I know of one, any more than that?
Most concern for me is the comment about tail clearance. That is what will get us banned, and I hope folks will work on exits that keep well clear of it.

But what do I know?

[theonlyski 3]

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OK, it was a packer and not the jumper. Still wondering if the lines were properly walked out because I just don't see what went wrong, ie: how did the pc get under the lines?
Also waiting for the list of DZ's that ban WS. I know of one, any more than that?
Most concern for me is the comment about tail clearance. That is what will get us banned, and I hope folks will work on exits that keep well clear of it.

A rookie packer could've let the pc under the bag or otherwise thru the lines, would be a pretty rare thing to happen, but I could semi see it.

Perhaps a bridle with a highly visible color contrasting the bag/container could've made it way obvious, but I think more importantly that the packer learned the lesson and nobody had to get hurt to teach him.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[DSE 3]

Another possiblity (and I believe in combo with the bridle under the Dbag) is a portion of the excess coming over the Dbag in the container, Dbag goes through the portion, pulled in rotation by the pc under the Dbag.
We re-created on the ground, and it is plausible.
Packer seems to think that's what happened too.
I'll post a pic with my next packjob; it'll make sense easier than descriptions.