Kicking legs during canopy flight

[skybill 19]

Hi T-L,
"Leg Kicking??" Hmmmmm..... 'Buncha' comments from, "In yer face," to "WTF is he/she doing???" Oh well? After hangin' round' this sport for over 40 years I can only say that nothing amazes me anymore. Kicking legs can mean "ANYTHING!!" from "Hi There!!" to "I got my nutz caught!!(he) to My leg straps are sliding up my slit(she)!!" or whoknozwhat?? If I'm 200yds away from someone under canopy and they are kickin their legs cuz they're worried that I might run into 'em, Oh well!! Perhaps another means of "Signaling" should be thought of. As Old Frank Goodman of "Mjr. Goodies Parachute Team, Baton Rouge, La." used to do, Take along a .45 cal. 1911 A-1 loaded with tracers to "Signal his whereabouts!!!" Now that'll get yer attention!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[SRI85 0]

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All leg kicks are doing is providing you with more information about your surroundings. It's a little packet of information that you can add to the overall picture you use to make decisions.

It is a half second process of "I see you. You see me. I now have more information about my surroundings than I did before".

How anyone can argue that having less information is the way to go is beyond me.

So what would you do if you didnt get a leg kick signal back?

[JackC1 0]

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So what would you do if you didnt get a leg kick signal back?

And what would you do if you saw someone kicking and they were only trying to get the blood back in their legs before they hooked a 450?

[joephus 0]

If they do not respond back, it's still more information I can add to my more overall situation. "This person is more than likely not aware of my position relative theirs, proceed with that in my mind."

It really just boils down to maximizing the amount information you have on had to make decisions. I don't think anyone can make a successful argument that more information is bad in this case.

[JackC1 0]

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I don't think anyone can make a successful argument that more information is bad in this case.

I dunno, false information could be bad. Not everyone knows that kicking means anything. People kick for all sorts of reasons. Misinterpreting someone's kick could potentially put you in trouble.

[joephus 0]

Inaccurate information can be a cause for concern but the off chance that you might get inaccurate information does not mean you should stop trying to collect information.

Should we stop using turn signals in cars because some people leave theirs on while driving straight down the highway? I would think not. You can observe that the person driving down the highway is not slowing down, is not turning his vehicle in any direction. His behavior is negating the information his turn signal is giving me. I proceed with this information in mind.

In the same light if some is kicking their legs but isn't looking at me, or doesn't divert course and keeps flying at me, his behavior is negating the information his leg kicks are giving me.

Again it's all information, and when life saving decisions have to made in a split second I want to err on the side of having more information not less.

[DBCOOPER 1]

How about if it's bad information that you think is good?

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[joephus 0]

See my response above about inaccurate information.

[CloudyHead 0]

car signal lights are not the best analogy IMO because then we are talking about signalling a turn rather than simple acknowledgement which is a lot different. It would be more like seeing somebody in the next lane on the highway and waving to let them know you're there so they don't cut you off. Isn't it? Not saying that's a bad idea either..........................................lol

[JackC1 0]

Turn signals are a standard way of letting other drivers know your intentions. There are even rules regarding them which every driver should know and abide by.

Leg kicking is an ad hoc, non-standard, made up thing that means nothing to most skydivers. Suppose you see someone above and in front of you and they're kicking so you kick back. You think it means he's seen you but in reality he's just waking up his legs so he can run out the swoop he's just about to turn 450 degree into. Next thing you know, he's ripped right in front of you and you were paying attention elsewhere because you thought he knew where you were.

If you want to be seen, buy a neon orange canopy. If you think kicking is some form of universal skydiver communication system that everyone will recognise, think again.

[mdrejhon 8]

Leg kicks are pretty common at bigways, where many canopies open in tight airspace.

[JackC1 0]

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Leg kicks are pretty common at bigways, where many canopies open in tight airspace.

Dozens of canopies all opening in a small space and kicking their legs. Who's talking to who and which one just has line twists?

[mdrejhon 8]

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i prefer to yell at other people under canopy if they are a factor.

That won't work for me. I'm a deaf skydiver.

[mjosparky 3]

I used to jump with a whistle on big ways. Under canopy and on landing I would blow the whistle. On a POP’s record attempt I came in blowing the hell out of my whistle and another jumper came up yelled at me. He said to quit blowing that damn whistle; all you’re doing is trying to draw attention to yourself. I looked at and smiled, it works doesn’t it. Communication can come in many forms and leg kicking has been around since the 70’s. If you see some clown kicking his legs under canopy that means you see him. Is that bad?

Trust me, with so little time in the sport there are still a few things you might not learned.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JackC1 0]

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If you see some clown kicking his legs under canopy that means you see him. Is that bad?

Only if you think it means he sees you.

[mdrejhon 8]

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Leg kicks are pretty common at bigways, where many canopies open in tight airspace.

Dozens of canopies all opening in a small space and kicking their legs. Who's talking to who?

It mainly happens with canopies closer to each other, rather than 1000 feet from each other, usually when tracking neighbours have off-heading openings that points roughly at each other, or they are trying to merge into a pattern and want to essentially notify them of an intent to merge. i.e. situations of actual threat. Or when the a small fragment of airspace is more congested than expected.

Sometimes it avoids the needs for a drastic evasive response, if you know they aren't planning to turn into you. If they respond immeidately with a kick, while turning their head at you, you know they aren't planning to turn into you. It's sometimes safer to fly side by side than to turn left/right into somebody else's airspace, if that canopy has now acknowledged your prescence. Sometimes it is sort of like giving permission to fly 100-foot-separation CRW, or whatever -- if they don't see you, then you have to worry they may turn into you. There are certain situations where you are stuck with canopies in front, behind, and to left, right. You have to decide between flying nearer a canopy that sees you, or a canopy that does not see you. If someone gives you an immediate leg kick while staring at you and the acknowledgement was less than 1 second, it's pretty confirmed that the leg kick is addressed at you -- you ARE close enough to see their facial expression or hear them.

The useful of legkicks are actually more apparent at bigways, because it's pretty much regular behaviour at the Perris 100-ways, large State Records, and World Records.

Also, some skydivers (like me) are deaf, and any yelling is ALSO accompanied by a leg kick -- it's good supplemental visual information. BUT SHOULD NOT be depended on. It's just good courtesy.

Go to several 100-ways, become assigned to a middle breakoff, rather than an outer whacker, then you'll once-in-a-while be in "boxed-in" situations that make you understand that leg kicks are useful, after all. You obviously rather follow side by side with a canopy that sees you, rather than turn closer to adjacent canopies that don't see you (because they might turn unexpectedly into you).

In many jumps you want to AVOID being boxed in, and being good at it, you can avoid it more than 90% of the time, but there's often that "one jump" at a major event, where the leg kick may occasionally make or break a specific fly-direction decision.

Another way to picture a scenario. 150 or 200-way jump. Your neighbour tracks a bit too far. Another neighbour opens a bit closer, and because you had to track between two neighbours that didn't fan out enough. Another one opens near too. Now you're surrounded by 3 canopies between 100-to-200 feet away, flying in various directions, within less than 100 feet of vertical altitude of you. You immediately see one of them that is doing leg kicks and staring directly at you (close enough to see eyeballs), she then immediately turns towards clear airspace. You decide to turn to approximately follow her, knowing three things (1) You immediately noticed good safe airspace in front of her, and (2) she's immediately no longer a threat because she's flying directly away from you, and (3) The simultaneous instant look/kick/"yo!" confirmed your prescence, she is far less likely than the others to move unexpectedly closer to you. .... Finally now you're safe from the other two canopies that don't see you until 3-4 seconds later (during which time they MIGHT unexpectedly turn towards you)

Time elapsed for the entire paragraph above: typically 2 seconds, on average. (during which time before leg kick reply, you're actively flying to avoid everybody on average, hoping none of the 3 turns into you. But obviously in the occasional situation you are "uncomfortably boxed in", you prefer to fly near people that notice you, rather than fly near people that don't notice you.

There's a lot of sorta-fuzzy scenarios, but you get the gist. The leg kick is good courtesy at big ways.

[joephus 0]

Turn signals are a method of conveying information, they can still convey inaccurate information regardless of laws, standards or anything else. Having laws and standards for turn signals does not make them auto-magically convey accurate information when someone has been driving 30 miles with their turn signal on. Knowing and abiding these rules doesn't always happen, hence inaccurate information is often relayed by using them. That doesn't mean you should stop using them.

I'm curious though, why would I stop paying attention to whats going on around me at any point in time, legs kicks or not? Just because we had a leg kick exchange it doesn't mean I'm going to start flying willy-nilly all over the sky.

But your scenario is actually the biggest reason I'm glad leg kicks are taught and used at my home DZ. As a noob I'm flying a docile and slow canopy and on any given load I can find myself in the middle of the load with several folks behind me flying high performance canopies. It's not uncommon to find myself in the air below canopies than can smoke right past me. It sure is comforting to know that when I kick my legs at them and they kick back, I know they see me before they do said 450.

[joephus 0]

At it's base it's all about information exchange. But that said, I sure as hell slam on my horn when someone is trying occupy the same lane space I'm using. Again its just conveying information.

[JackC1 0]

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Leg kicks are pretty common at bigways, where many canopies open in tight airspace.

Dozens of canopies all opening in a small space and kicking their legs. Who's talking to who?

It mainly happens with canopies closer to each other, rather than 1000 feet from each other, usually when tracking neighbours have off-heading openings that points roughly at each other, or they are trying to merge into a pattern and want to essentially notify them of an intent to merge. i.e. situations of actual threat. Or when the a small fragment of airspace is more congested than expected.

Sometimes it avoids the needs for a drastic evasive response, if you know they aren't planning to turn into you. If they respond immeidately with a kick, while turning their head at you, you know they aren't planning to turn into you. It's sometimes safer to fly side by side than to turn left/right into somebody else's airspace, if that canopy has now acknowledged your prescence. Sometimes it is sort of like giving permission to fly 100-foot-separation CRW, or whatever -- if they don't see you, then you have to worry they may turn into you. There are certain situations where you are stuck with canopies in front, behind, and to left, right. You have to decide between flying nearer a canopy that sees you, or a canopy that does not see you. If someone gives you an immediate leg kick while staring at you and the acknowledgement was less than 1 second, it's pretty confirmed that the leg kick is addressed at you -- you ARE close enough to see their facial expression or hear them.

The useful of legkicks are actually more apparent at bigways, because it's pretty much regular behaviour at the Perris 100-ways, large State Records, and World Records.

Also, some skydivers (like me) are deaf, and any yelling is ALSO accompanied by a leg kick -- it's good supplemental visual information. BUT SHOULD NOT be depended on. It's just good courtesy.

Go to several 100-ways, become assigned to a middle breakoff, rather than an outer whacker, then you'll once-in-a-while be in "boxed-in" situations that make you understand that leg kicks are useful, after all. You obviously rather follow side by side with a canopy that sees you, rather than turn closer to adjacent canopies that don't see you (because they might turn unexpectedly into you).

In many jumps you want to AVOID being boxed in, and being good at it, you can avoid it more than 90% of the time, but there's often that "one jump" at a major event, where the leg kick may occasionally make or break a specific fly-direction decision.

Another way to picture a scenario. 150 or 200-way jump. Your neighbour tracks a bit too far. Another neighbour opens a bit closer, and because you had to track between two neighbours that didn't fan out enough. Now you're surrounded by 3 canopies between 100-to-200 feet away, flying in various directions, within less than 100 feet of vertical altitude of you. You immediately see one of them that is doing leg kicks and staring directly at you (close enough to see eyeballs), she then immediately turns towards clear airspace. You decide to turn to follow her, knowing two things (1) You immediately noticed good safe airspace in front of her, and (2) she's immediately no longer a threat because she's flying directly away from you, and (3) The simultaneous instant look/kick/"yo!" confirmed your prescence, she won't move unexpectedly closer to you. .... Finally now you're safe from the other two canopies that don't see you until 3-4 seconds later (during which time they MIGHT unexpectedly turn towards you)

Time elapsed: typically 2 seconds, on average. (during which time, you're actively flying to avoid everybody on average, hoping nobody turns into you, but preferring to fly past people that notice you, rather than fly past people that don't notice you)

There's a lot of sorta-fuzzy scenarios, but you get the gist. The leg kick is good courtesy at big ways.

Good answer.
I notice you say eye contact is important. It definitely is. A kick on it's own doesn't mean very much. It could be aimed at someone else, it could be the result of a "nut-under" malfunction or it could be something else entirely. Without some other form of communication, leg kicks are dubious in their intent.

But in big ways, where spirals and sharp turns are generally forbidden, following someone else (while best avoided if there is a viable alternative) does have a certain amount of safety to it. The only way you'll crash into them is if they slow down suddenly or turn sharply. At the very least, you have longer to react than if they were flying directly at you. Flying side by side, you need to know they see you. The only way you're going to know that is if you see that they see you, with eye contact. A kick without eye contact is not something I would not trust my life to.

[billvon 2,400]

>Dozens of canopies all opening in a small space and kicking their legs.
>Who's talking to who and which one just has line twists?

The one with line twists has line twists. Pretty much everyone who is qualified to be on a big way can recognize what line twists are.

[JackC1 0]

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I'm curious though, why would I stop paying attention to whats going on around me at any point in time, legs kicks or not? Just because we had a leg kick exchange it doesn't mean I'm going to start flying willy-nilly all over the sky.

Hopefully you wouldn't. But even with the best peripheral vision in the world, you can only cover about 180 degrees horizontally and about 90 degrees vertically. That leaves a whole lot of sky that is not in your field of vision and that's where danger lurks. As soon as kicking boy is out of your field of vision, you are flying on trust that his kick is what you think it is and that he won't turn into you before you look back.

Rather than rely on a kick to signal he's seen me and wont do anything stupid, I'd turn to a safer direction and put some distance between us. Even if it means a walk back to the DZ. In fact my no 1 priority after checking that my canopy is OK is to point myself into clear airspace and locate everyone else on the lift. That's before I collapse my slider, pop my brakes and do all the other comfort stuff. Then I plan where I'm going to fit into the landing order and fly accordingly. Assessing and reassessing the situation as it changes.

[billvon 2,400]

>And what would you do if you saw someone kicking and they were only
>trying to get the blood back in their legs before they hooked a 450?

Exactly. And what if you saw someone waving off but they were just checking their camera helmet? Might as well not wave off so you don't confuse people. And what if you heard someone say "PARACHUTE OUT!" in the plane when the door was open, but they were just saying "that's what my parachute's about?" Might as well not mention anything; might be misunderstood. And what if someone is pointing to an area of an open field and making a swirling motion with their other hand? Sure, might mean a dust devil, but it also might be the guy telling his friend there's a ferris wheel way over there.

This is getting stupid. Don't kick if you don't want to. Heck, don't even make eye contact with anyone so nothing is misunderstood. But for those of us who jump often with people we know in crowded skies, it helps keep us safer.

[JackC1 0]

You're missing my point. A leg kick on it's own doesn't mean shit in terms of communication unless you have something else to back it up with. Without that backup you have to assume he hasn't seen you so you get out of Dodge pronto. Same with a wave off. It means get out of my airspace, camera malfunction or not. The best option is to get clear which I reckon you should be doing kicks or no.

If you have some agreed method that makes leg kicks means something to both of you and you are sure about it, then kick away. But don't just assume some other random guy knows what you're up to, he may not.

[kallend 1,626]

The human visual cortex responds particularly well to movement. The more movement you make the more likely you are to be noticed.

Having been hit from behind by someone who "didn't see" me right up to the moment of impact, I now make every effort to be as visible as possible when under canopy. If you don't like my leg kicking, then too bad.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>A leg kick on it's own doesn't mean shit in terms of communication unless
>you have something else to back it up with.

Like eye contact.