TaeKwonDoDo 0 #26 September 8, 2003 Quote No-one should rely on any device working. I still don't think that makes a good argument not to get one though. Well, I voted... and I think we all rely on our mains working, and if the main doesn't doesn't work, I will (haven't had to... yet) rely on my reserve. I view the AAD as another device that increases the safety of a sport that is both: a) not very forgiving or, b) not good at giving second chances at said forgiveness The agreement I have with the Control Tower (my wife) is that I won't jump without one - and that if I'm renting a student rig while my AAD is out for service, I call it $20 of "additional" insurance per jump. - Jeff "That's not flying, it's falling with style." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #27 September 8, 2003 QuoteI also know of at least one person that has had TWO CYPRES fires.....This person was not knocked out, just falt out screwed up twice...This person should take up golf. But when she was asked about this recuring problem she got pissy and said "I know what I am doing...I am safe thats why I bought a CYPRES". Wrong way to think about it... A CYPRES is a great device, but if you rely on it for a second....You are not cutout for this sport. Skydiving is not for everyone...and it should not be for everyone. Absolutely agreed. I guess my post should have been, people make mistakes, and the smart ones learn from them. I jumped without a Cypres for 300 or so jumps, never had any close calls, had a cutaway with no problems. I would've bought one if I could've afforded it, I think, or maybe I would've just bought a new main. Hard to say. But when I started dating my boyfriend he became my rigger. He gave me back my rig after the first repack he did on it, with a Cypres in it (along with several small upgrades he'd done to make it safer). He said to pay for it when I could, which I did after 6 months. Although I know I can handle whatever comes my way, it's nice to have an extra device to help keep me alive if I screw up (I'm not beyond making a mistake). I'm grateful he made it possible for me to have one, and I THINK I'd make it a priority for myself from this point on. But to be honest, it's hard to say. I sold mine this year since I'm jumping bigger gear right now. It's pretty tempting to just close up my rig and jump it without one when it fits me again... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #28 September 8, 2003 I think you misread my post. All I'm saying is that to assume your cypress will work (save your butt) is a potentially fatal assumption(i.e. burning in to 750 confident that my cypress will fire is not on my TODO list). My statement to Ron was, while I believe the above, I'd rather have one than not. By the way, every time I pitch I expect my main to fail. I am pleasantly surprised when it doesn't (i.e I am ready for my reserve procedures at any time), both times I had my reserve rides, I expected them to fail to and tried to be ready for whatever could happen next (line over, etc). Complacency in your gear can get you killed, don't assume that anything will work - any or all of it can fail - as unlikely as it may be. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaeKwonDoDo 0 #29 September 8, 2003 QuoteI think you misread my post. All I'm saying is that to assume your cypress will work (save your butt) is a potentially fatal assumption(i.e. burning in to 750 confident that my cypress will fire is not on my TODO list). My statement to Ron was, while I believe the above, I'd rather have one than not. By the way, every time I pitch I expect my main to fail. I am pleasantly surprised when it doesn't (i.e I am ready for my reserve procedures at any time), both times I had my reserve rides, I expected them to fail to and tried to be ready for whatever could happen next (line over, etc). Complacency in your gear can get you killed, don't assume that anything will work - any or all of it can fail - as unlikely as it may be. Blue skies Ian No I understood what you were saying - and we're on the same page. And I like your line of thinking on preparing for each pull being a mal - didn't realize till just now that each time I look up after a throw that I am suprised (especially now that I'm packing my own) that it does open, that I'm essentually preparing for a mal. Now I can make it concious. My comment was to get across that of all of our main/back-up systems we have to assume that at least one of them will work, or the Wuffos are right! Nothing is wrong with increasing the odds for the success of a dive - AAD does this (at least for me). Actually, I'm suprised they're not mandatory for all divers (ducking now). - Jeff "That's not flying, it's falling with style." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #30 September 8, 2003 QuoteI view the AAD as another device that increases the safety of a sport that is both: a) not very forgiving or, b) not good at giving second chances at said forgiveness The agreement I have with the Control Tower (my wife) is that I won't jump without one - and that if I'm renting a student rig while my AAD is out for service, I call it $20 of "additional" insurance per jump. - Jeff And while I am glad you are able to jump (When the wife lets you) I have to ask..What happens if you have a CYPRES save? Do you just replace the thing and keep jumping? Or do you realize that you are dead, and were saved by no act of your own and go play golf? The answer for most people today is replace it and ingonre the fact they are dead.....This is a dangerous and foolish way to think. But since the cypres came out it has become very mainstream way of thinking...And I don't think it is for the better."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #31 September 8, 2003 Ron, Don't get me wrong, we're kinda on the same page but I think you're taking it a bit of an extreme here. I mean saying something like: QuoteWhat happens if you have a CYPRES save? Do you just replace the thing and keep jumping? Or do you realize that you are dead, and were saved by no act of your own and go play golf? Is like saying if an airbag/seatbelt saves your life you should give up driving. I know there can be factors in either example that lead to a "yes" answer but just because someone makes a mistake doesn't mean they shouldn't skydive (I'm not talking extreme cases here). Yes, the complacency that a cypress can bring bothers me, HOWEVER, that is not the fault of the device and certainly isn't an adequate reason not use one. I think there is a middle ground here. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #32 September 8, 2003 QuoteI don't see one post here where anyone says they won't jump without one. I do see numerous posts saying they'd prefer to have one. I can only assume that you read the poll incorrectly? Yep my bad sorry. But I DO know people who wil not jump without one....That is not the kind of person I want in freefall with me. "IM safe, I have a CYPRES. I can dive harder I have a CYPRES". And if I had a DZ and you had one fire....You would not be jumping there again."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #33 September 8, 2003 QuoteBut I DO know people who wil not jump without one....That is not the kind of person I want in freefall with me. Could it be that you're jumping to conclusions assuming that people jump with a cypres to protect themselves from going low, when in fact maybe they won't jump without a cypres because they are afraid of getting knocked out? To me, these are two radically different uses of the cypres. The first scenario makes you wonder if the person should skydive while the second scenario is more like an insurance policy. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #34 September 8, 2003 Quote Don't get me wrong, we're kinda on the same page but I think you're taking it a bit of an extreme here. I mean saying something like: [Quote] What happens if you have a CYPRES save? Do you just replace the thing and keep jumping? Or do you realize that you are dead, and were saved by no act of your own and go play golf? [/qoute] Is like saying if an airbag/seatbelt saves your life you should give up driving. I know there can be factors in either example that lead to a "yes" answer but just because someone makes a mistake doesn't mean they shouldn't skydive (I'm not talking extreme cases here). Not the same....I have been in car accidents where I didn't have an airbag. I'm still here. Not many people who scream past 700 feet live. Facts are facts....If you are SAVED by a CYPRES, you should look into other sports. Same for if you feel you NEED it. QuoteYes, the complacency that a cypress can bring bothers me, HOWEVER, that is not the fault of the device and certainly isn't an adequate reason not use one. I think there is a middle ground here. Hell I have and use a cypres. I also have 600-700 jumps without one. And I don't feel I NEED one. I am a very direct guy. This sport is not for everyone. It should not be for everyone. If you think you NEED a cypres...you need to relook at this sport. But this is a free country and if someone relys on the damn thing I can't do anything about it. But its not smart. But people do it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaeKwonDoDo 0 #35 September 8, 2003 Quote What happens if you have a CYPRES save? Do you just replace the thing and keep jumping? Or do you realize that you are dead, and were saved by no act of your own and go play golf? Hmmm - don't agree with that line of thinking... First off, having a cypress save to allow me to go play golf, or whatever, is the point. Without it, no more golf (at least for a while - but my golf sucks anyway ). Putting in the cypress was as conscious an act as pulling red-then-silver. Call it a safety maneuver that I did pre-mal - as the red/silver gets done at mal. Both can be argued as "back-up" safety equipment. Do I rely on all safety aspects of the equipment I use? You betchya. As stated, If I thought there was not enough safety measures then the Wuffos are right. Do I hope I ever have to get to the point where I use any of them? God, I hope not - but the odds are pretty high that there will be a reserve ride or two in my future - Does a reserve save count as much as a cypress save? Do I still get to play golf or do I play dead. Do I think I'll ever get saved by a cypress? Again, hope not - but I will have the piece of mind that it is there in the event I do something extremely stupid and phuck-up (unconscious in a docking impact, lose alti awareness, whatever). And if the point that is trying to be made: Should we push ourselves to the limit because we can count on our cypress to save our sorry ass? Anyone with that attitude/thought process doesn't belong in the sport (or won't enjoy it very long - we all know what that means). - Jeff "That's not flying, it's falling with style." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #36 September 8, 2003 QuoteAnd if I had a DZ and you had one fire....You would not be jumping there again. Ron, one day you and I are going to have to meet and have a beer, we seem to think on the same page. My two cents on AAD's. I have two dear friends who may have been saved possibly had they had one, but I still do not jump with one. It is a personal choice. If you feel you need one or you can't jump, like Ron says, take up golf. By the same token if you fire one (as the girl in Ron's story) because of stupidity, don't ever show up at my DZ again, you won't be getting on a load. If you can afford one get it, peace of mind, if you can't, don't give up jumping, just be safe. Which by the way, doesn't mean be stupid if you do have one, there is a big difference.blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #37 September 8, 2003 QuoteCould it be that you're jumping to conclusions assuming that people jump with a cypres to protect themselves from going low, when in fact maybe they won't jump without a cypres because they are afraid of getting knocked out? To me, these are two radically different uses of the cypres. The first scenario makes you wonder if the person should skydive while the second scenario is more like an insurance policy. Nope....I have been told that people get them so they will live if they get knocked out....But look at the saves. Only a VERY SMALL % of saves were people knocked out. Most are standard fuckups. And I have had peole tel me flat out that they need it to feel safe and will not jump without one....I knoe one lady that has been saved twice. So if you look at the saves you will see that you have amuch greater chance of being saved due to stupidity than being knocked out. Listen "I have a CYPRES incase I do some increadbly stupid act and I have to have a cool toy save my ass because I was to stupid to do it myself". I don't think I will get knocked out. There is a chance I will be low as hell (Been there, saved myself). Most people SAY that they get a cypres to prevent dying from being knocked out....But very few people have been knocked out compared to the stupid saves."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #38 September 8, 2003 QuotePutting in the cypress was as conscious an act as pulling red-then-silver. Call it a safety maneuver that I did pre-mal - as the red/silver gets done at mal. Both can be argued as "back-up" safety equipment. This is the line of reasoning that I call BS on. With the E procedures you have to do something....A cypres is passive. And if you have one fre you should really look at your involvment in this sport...But you of the "Cypres generation" don't see it that way....And I see that as a problem. QuoteAnd if the point that is trying to be made: Should we push ourselves to the limit because we can count on our cypress to save our sorry ass? And what about people that need a cypres to jump....Does that not fit in your pushing it theory? I mean if they didn't have one they would not jump right? So if they have to have one to jump, then they are pushing the limits of what they see as saftey right?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #39 September 8, 2003 QuoteRon, one day you and I are going to have to meet and have a beer, we seem to think on the same page. When I have a free weekend I am planning on taking some people to a DZ that has a cessna and will let me teach them to spot. You got such a place? Then I'll get the first round. Quote If you can afford one get it, peace of mind, if you can't, don't give up jumping, just be safe. Which by the way, doesn't mean be stupid if you do have one, there is a big difference. Amen!!!"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #40 September 8, 2003 QuoteBut very few people have been knocked out compared to the stupid saves. Well I don't know the stats so maybe you're right, or maybe you're not. But I won't argue as I do agree that people are in the wrong sport if they are solely relying on their cypres to save their bacon during low-no pulls. I do know that I have made at least two jumps with my cypres turned off (one time I had it intentionally turned off in the airplane once I remembered I had jumped at a DZ 1400 feet higher earlier in the day, and the other time I just forgot to turn it on for an early morning jump). But as a freeflier I do feel better knowing I have a cypres in case of a mid air collision which disables me for whatever reason come pull time. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TaeKwonDoDo 0 #41 September 8, 2003 Quote This is the line of reasoning that I call BS on. Makes sense to me. Quote And what about people that need a cypres to jump....Does that not fit in your pushing it theory? Yes. Quote I mean if they didn't have one they would not jump right? So if they have to have one to jump, then they are pushing the limits of what they see as saftey right? Ahhh, there is the key word - I may have missed how you were applying it before: "NEED". And I agree - If I thought I NEEDED one, I shouldn't be doing this. The word NEED in this implies in your context that said person will be one of those who pushes the limit and believes this is his safety. Now I see where the term "RELY" is being applied. Fully agree. If he NEEDS it, ground him. I "WANT" one for the simple fact that I AM new to the sport and WANT the added security that one gives. Do I NEED it? Setting the spousal agreement aside, no, as I am new enough to not be complacent as a go through a fall and watch the clock religously, and even more-so as it swings by 6AM. I hope I am as dilligent at 200 or 2000 jumps checking the watch as I am now. As for the Cypress? I still WANT it - but not as an altitude awareness tool. "That's not flying, it's falling with style." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TaeKwonDoDo 0 #42 September 8, 2003 And to: Quote And what about people that need a cypres to jump....Does that not fit in your pushing it theory? I mean if they didn't have one they would not jump right? So if they have to have one to jump, then they are pushing the limits of what they see as saftey right? I think what you are pointing out here is that there is a complacency that the cypress give some to push the edge - especially people of the "cypress generation". Another way of interpreting this is that there ARE those that become significantly MORE agressive because they have one....because they think they can. I hope they are nowhere near me. - Jeff "That's not flying, it's falling with style." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #43 September 8, 2003 Do you guys honestly think people dive harder and take more chances because they have a cypres? Skydiving equipment today allows nearly any one to skydive should they choose to. There a few that should not but seem to do ok any way. More people of the "cypres generation" as you call it, use them because that's how they were brought up. Another thing, what the fuck is wrong with surviving because a cypres saved your ass? I jump with some extremely talented fliers that would be dead other wise. Sure they blew it. But I doubt it will happen again. With the analogies I've read, that would make ME an unsafe skydiver. NONE of the few people I know that have screwed up bad enough to need a cypres, are any more aggressive than anyone else I know that uses or doesn't use a cypres. I PREFER to have one. Currently I don't. My flying habits are identical.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,467 #44 September 9, 2003 >Do you guys honestly think people dive harder and take more >chances because they have a cypres? I know they do; they've told me. "You know, you guys should look down once in a while." "That's why I have an audible." "Well, those things can fail." "Hey, that's why I have a cypres!" "That guy's got 30 jumps and he's zoomy; not sure he should be on a 6 way with you guys." "Don't worry, we'll keep an eye on him." "You will? You've got 140 jumps; you're not too good at combat RW yet. What happens if he takes you out?" "Hey, that's why I have a cypres!" At least one jumper died when he relied on the cypres to work; he told his friends that he wasn't sure he could perform under pressure, but his cypres gave him the confidence he needed. He had to bail out at 1500 feet. The cypres didn't arm. He pulled his cutaway handle, then his main. He impacted as his RSL was beginning to deploy his reserve. He'd be alive today if not for the false reassurance his cypres gave him. It does happen. >With the analogies I've read, that would make ME an unsafe skydiver. ?? You are only an unsafe skydiver if you do riskier things with a cypres than you would without one. Safe skydivers skydive as if they have no backups - then their backups truly _are_ backups. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #45 September 9, 2003 One good by-product of the Cypres, I believe, is that intentionally taking it low before deploying your main is less common now.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chrisky 0 #46 September 9, 2003 Well, given the cutter price of about 120 USD (i think), its not just fire-and-forget (fire and buy all-new) device, should you ever need it. Hope you never will! The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #47 September 9, 2003 Well then, I guess ya got me on that. Those comments you mentioned have eluded me, though I've heard some of them in jest. Yes, only jest. Will you clarify this.... (just curious as to the specifics) QuoteHe had to bail out at 1500 feet. My actions have always been the same with or with out a cypres. I still stand by my original post, as always, there are some exceptions.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rdesilets 0 #48 September 9, 2003 You might want to check out the thread "CYPRES Save!" over in the incidents forum... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #49 September 9, 2003 QuoteDo you guys honestly think people dive harder and take more chances because they have a cypres? Yep reference this thread even. QuoteBut as a freeflier I do feel better knowing I have a cypres in case of a mid air collision which disables me for whatever reason come pull time. A large number of people have taken up freeflying. I honestly think that people should have a hundred or so jumps of regular RW to delevlop the life saving part of the sport before they start FF....When I bring this up to guy with less than 100 jumps I get "It's OK I have a CYPRES" all the time. QuoteSkydiving equipment today allows nearly any one to skydive should they choose to. There a few that should not but seem to do ok any way. More people of the "cypres generation" as you call it, use them because that's how they were brought up. And because they don't know better and its always been there, they rely on them. "Its OK I have a CYPRES". QuoteAnother thing, what the fuck is wrong with surviving because a cypres saved your ass? I jump with some extremely talented fliers that would be dead other wise. Sure they blew it. But I doubt it will happen again. Nothing is wrong with having your ass saved...But I hope each of these people had a reality check, and relooked their participation in this sport...But I have seen people have a CYPRES fire and think nothing of it..."Its why I bought it, to save my ass. I got it put back in my rig leave me alone I'm a safe jumper". A safe jumper that had an AAD save them? I don't get that do you? All I have ever said is that if you have a CYPRES fire you need to sit the fuck down and have a serious look at your life, and how you fucked up so bad that you needed a neat toy to save your ass. I see WAY to many people blow off a CYPRES fire using this logic QuotePutting in the cypress was as conscious an act as pulling red-then-silver. Call it a safety maneuver that I did pre-mal - as the red/silver gets done at mal. Both can be argued as "back-up" safety equipment. And they don't take it as serious. They treat it like since they bought a CYPRES they are safe skydivers. I don't agree. If you have a CYPRES fire you fucked up bad....And you need to really look at why, not just blow it off like many do now. Bill was this low non-CYPRES fire in MS? If so I knew him....If not I know of another one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #50 September 9, 2003 Quote Will you clarify this.... (just curious as to the specifics) [Quote] He had to bail out at 1500 feet. I don't know if this is the same story...It was 1996 I think in MS. at a Cessna DZ. There was an observer that turned the fuel selector valve off around 1,500 feet. The pilot didn't check that first, but insted told the jumpers to get out. The first jumper went out on his main and had a LOW opening. The pilot (Who is a jumper and rigger) told my buddy to go on his reserve. (I think he should have been doing his engine failure procedures....by thats just my opinion, and I was not there. However I a pilot). My buddy had around 500 jumps he climbed out poised and pulled his cutaway handle.....He relalised that he was still in freefall and threw his main (Which he just cutaway). He hit some trees while the RSL was opening his reserve. He never made it to the ground getting caught in the trees. A gold watch he used to wear all the time was imbedded into his wrist from impact with a tree limb. A CYPRES does not arm until you climb past 1,500 feet. If you go out before it arms it will never fire. This friends death is how I learned about that issue. Don't know if this is the same story Bill is talking about, or if it is another one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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Ron 7 #37 September 8, 2003 QuoteCould it be that you're jumping to conclusions assuming that people jump with a cypres to protect themselves from going low, when in fact maybe they won't jump without a cypres because they are afraid of getting knocked out? To me, these are two radically different uses of the cypres. The first scenario makes you wonder if the person should skydive while the second scenario is more like an insurance policy. Nope....I have been told that people get them so they will live if they get knocked out....But look at the saves. Only a VERY SMALL % of saves were people knocked out. Most are standard fuckups. And I have had peole tel me flat out that they need it to feel safe and will not jump without one....I knoe one lady that has been saved twice. So if you look at the saves you will see that you have amuch greater chance of being saved due to stupidity than being knocked out. Listen "I have a CYPRES incase I do some increadbly stupid act and I have to have a cool toy save my ass because I was to stupid to do it myself". I don't think I will get knocked out. There is a chance I will be low as hell (Been there, saved myself). Most people SAY that they get a cypres to prevent dying from being knocked out....But very few people have been knocked out compared to the stupid saves."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #38 September 8, 2003 QuotePutting in the cypress was as conscious an act as pulling red-then-silver. Call it a safety maneuver that I did pre-mal - as the red/silver gets done at mal. Both can be argued as "back-up" safety equipment. This is the line of reasoning that I call BS on. With the E procedures you have to do something....A cypres is passive. And if you have one fre you should really look at your involvment in this sport...But you of the "Cypres generation" don't see it that way....And I see that as a problem. QuoteAnd if the point that is trying to be made: Should we push ourselves to the limit because we can count on our cypress to save our sorry ass? And what about people that need a cypres to jump....Does that not fit in your pushing it theory? I mean if they didn't have one they would not jump right? So if they have to have one to jump, then they are pushing the limits of what they see as saftey right?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #39 September 8, 2003 QuoteRon, one day you and I are going to have to meet and have a beer, we seem to think on the same page. When I have a free weekend I am planning on taking some people to a DZ that has a cessna and will let me teach them to spot. You got such a place? Then I'll get the first round. Quote If you can afford one get it, peace of mind, if you can't, don't give up jumping, just be safe. Which by the way, doesn't mean be stupid if you do have one, there is a big difference. Amen!!!"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #40 September 8, 2003 QuoteBut very few people have been knocked out compared to the stupid saves. Well I don't know the stats so maybe you're right, or maybe you're not. But I won't argue as I do agree that people are in the wrong sport if they are solely relying on their cypres to save their bacon during low-no pulls. I do know that I have made at least two jumps with my cypres turned off (one time I had it intentionally turned off in the airplane once I remembered I had jumped at a DZ 1400 feet higher earlier in the day, and the other time I just forgot to turn it on for an early morning jump). But as a freeflier I do feel better knowing I have a cypres in case of a mid air collision which disables me for whatever reason come pull time. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaeKwonDoDo 0 #41 September 8, 2003 Quote This is the line of reasoning that I call BS on. Makes sense to me. Quote And what about people that need a cypres to jump....Does that not fit in your pushing it theory? Yes. Quote I mean if they didn't have one they would not jump right? So if they have to have one to jump, then they are pushing the limits of what they see as saftey right? Ahhh, there is the key word - I may have missed how you were applying it before: "NEED". And I agree - If I thought I NEEDED one, I shouldn't be doing this. The word NEED in this implies in your context that said person will be one of those who pushes the limit and believes this is his safety. Now I see where the term "RELY" is being applied. Fully agree. If he NEEDS it, ground him. I "WANT" one for the simple fact that I AM new to the sport and WANT the added security that one gives. Do I NEED it? Setting the spousal agreement aside, no, as I am new enough to not be complacent as a go through a fall and watch the clock religously, and even more-so as it swings by 6AM. I hope I am as dilligent at 200 or 2000 jumps checking the watch as I am now. As for the Cypress? I still WANT it - but not as an altitude awareness tool. "That's not flying, it's falling with style." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaeKwonDoDo 0 #42 September 8, 2003 And to: Quote And what about people that need a cypres to jump....Does that not fit in your pushing it theory? I mean if they didn't have one they would not jump right? So if they have to have one to jump, then they are pushing the limits of what they see as saftey right? I think what you are pointing out here is that there is a complacency that the cypress give some to push the edge - especially people of the "cypress generation". Another way of interpreting this is that there ARE those that become significantly MORE agressive because they have one....because they think they can. I hope they are nowhere near me. - Jeff "That's not flying, it's falling with style." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #43 September 8, 2003 Do you guys honestly think people dive harder and take more chances because they have a cypres? Skydiving equipment today allows nearly any one to skydive should they choose to. There a few that should not but seem to do ok any way. More people of the "cypres generation" as you call it, use them because that's how they were brought up. Another thing, what the fuck is wrong with surviving because a cypres saved your ass? I jump with some extremely talented fliers that would be dead other wise. Sure they blew it. But I doubt it will happen again. With the analogies I've read, that would make ME an unsafe skydiver. NONE of the few people I know that have screwed up bad enough to need a cypres, are any more aggressive than anyone else I know that uses or doesn't use a cypres. I PREFER to have one. Currently I don't. My flying habits are identical.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,467 #44 September 9, 2003 >Do you guys honestly think people dive harder and take more >chances because they have a cypres? I know they do; they've told me. "You know, you guys should look down once in a while." "That's why I have an audible." "Well, those things can fail." "Hey, that's why I have a cypres!" "That guy's got 30 jumps and he's zoomy; not sure he should be on a 6 way with you guys." "Don't worry, we'll keep an eye on him." "You will? You've got 140 jumps; you're not too good at combat RW yet. What happens if he takes you out?" "Hey, that's why I have a cypres!" At least one jumper died when he relied on the cypres to work; he told his friends that he wasn't sure he could perform under pressure, but his cypres gave him the confidence he needed. He had to bail out at 1500 feet. The cypres didn't arm. He pulled his cutaway handle, then his main. He impacted as his RSL was beginning to deploy his reserve. He'd be alive today if not for the false reassurance his cypres gave him. It does happen. >With the analogies I've read, that would make ME an unsafe skydiver. ?? You are only an unsafe skydiver if you do riskier things with a cypres than you would without one. Safe skydivers skydive as if they have no backups - then their backups truly _are_ backups. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #45 September 9, 2003 One good by-product of the Cypres, I believe, is that intentionally taking it low before deploying your main is less common now.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #46 September 9, 2003 Well, given the cutter price of about 120 USD (i think), its not just fire-and-forget (fire and buy all-new) device, should you ever need it. Hope you never will! The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #47 September 9, 2003 Well then, I guess ya got me on that. Those comments you mentioned have eluded me, though I've heard some of them in jest. Yes, only jest. Will you clarify this.... (just curious as to the specifics) QuoteHe had to bail out at 1500 feet. My actions have always been the same with or with out a cypres. I still stand by my original post, as always, there are some exceptions.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdesilets 0 #48 September 9, 2003 You might want to check out the thread "CYPRES Save!" over in the incidents forum... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #49 September 9, 2003 QuoteDo you guys honestly think people dive harder and take more chances because they have a cypres? Yep reference this thread even. QuoteBut as a freeflier I do feel better knowing I have a cypres in case of a mid air collision which disables me for whatever reason come pull time. A large number of people have taken up freeflying. I honestly think that people should have a hundred or so jumps of regular RW to delevlop the life saving part of the sport before they start FF....When I bring this up to guy with less than 100 jumps I get "It's OK I have a CYPRES" all the time. QuoteSkydiving equipment today allows nearly any one to skydive should they choose to. There a few that should not but seem to do ok any way. More people of the "cypres generation" as you call it, use them because that's how they were brought up. And because they don't know better and its always been there, they rely on them. "Its OK I have a CYPRES". QuoteAnother thing, what the fuck is wrong with surviving because a cypres saved your ass? I jump with some extremely talented fliers that would be dead other wise. Sure they blew it. But I doubt it will happen again. Nothing is wrong with having your ass saved...But I hope each of these people had a reality check, and relooked their participation in this sport...But I have seen people have a CYPRES fire and think nothing of it..."Its why I bought it, to save my ass. I got it put back in my rig leave me alone I'm a safe jumper". A safe jumper that had an AAD save them? I don't get that do you? All I have ever said is that if you have a CYPRES fire you need to sit the fuck down and have a serious look at your life, and how you fucked up so bad that you needed a neat toy to save your ass. I see WAY to many people blow off a CYPRES fire using this logic QuotePutting in the cypress was as conscious an act as pulling red-then-silver. Call it a safety maneuver that I did pre-mal - as the red/silver gets done at mal. Both can be argued as "back-up" safety equipment. And they don't take it as serious. They treat it like since they bought a CYPRES they are safe skydivers. I don't agree. If you have a CYPRES fire you fucked up bad....And you need to really look at why, not just blow it off like many do now. Bill was this low non-CYPRES fire in MS? If so I knew him....If not I know of another one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #50 September 9, 2003 Quote Will you clarify this.... (just curious as to the specifics) [Quote] He had to bail out at 1500 feet. I don't know if this is the same story...It was 1996 I think in MS. at a Cessna DZ. There was an observer that turned the fuel selector valve off around 1,500 feet. The pilot didn't check that first, but insted told the jumpers to get out. The first jumper went out on his main and had a LOW opening. The pilot (Who is a jumper and rigger) told my buddy to go on his reserve. (I think he should have been doing his engine failure procedures....by thats just my opinion, and I was not there. However I a pilot). My buddy had around 500 jumps he climbed out poised and pulled his cutaway handle.....He relalised that he was still in freefall and threw his main (Which he just cutaway). He hit some trees while the RSL was opening his reserve. He never made it to the ground getting caught in the trees. A gold watch he used to wear all the time was imbedded into his wrist from impact with a tree limb. A CYPRES does not arm until you climb past 1,500 feet. If you go out before it arms it will never fire. This friends death is how I learned about that issue. Don't know if this is the same story Bill is talking about, or if it is another one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
