andy2 0 #26 August 20, 2003 I don't see how its not a factor. The older a peice of gear is the more likely it will be "worn in". It's just odds, of course some people might have a rig that is over 20 years old and has less than a thousand jumps on it, but probably more times than not the gear is old and will present saftey issues, like the one you found (luckily on the ground!). Some gear just needs to be retired, I think... --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #27 August 20, 2003 QuoteI don't see how its not a factor. The older a peice of gear is the more likely it will be "worn in". It's just odds, of course some people might have a rig that is over 20 years old and has less than a thousand jumps on it, but probably more times than not the gear is old and will present saftey issues, like the one you found (luckily on the ground!). Some gear just needs to be retired, I think... Andy, Thats quite a mouthful for 49 jumps.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #28 August 20, 2003 QuoteThis whole "age" issue is just a red herring argument We're Curious.. not arguing I have 30 year old rig in my closet that looks like it's off the shelf.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #29 August 20, 2003 Quotethe failure was excessive wear on a metal component which put it out of operable specification. Thats an awful lot of wear, and I'm sure that other components have experienced similar wear. You don't know it was excessive wear. It could have been excessive only because something has been misaligned for a while, causing it to wear out faster than it should have. It could have been sheared off from abuse, like smacking it against the door on exit. There are a number of ways this could have happened, that are not just simple "excessive wear". Just because one tiny nub of metal has worn off, does not mean that the entire rig is too worn out. Quote Besides, if you have over 4000 jumps, you deserve a new container. This is about the fourth rig I've owned in those 4,000 jumps. If you are under the impression that all 4,000 jumps have been made on this one rig, then that is an incorrect assumption. There are lots of things I deserve that I don't get. I'll attach two more photos here. The first shows the two tabs of metal on the gate on a normal snap (see the blue arrows). Those gate tabs fit into recesses in the inside of the snap. Actually, one tab is curled inward a bit... The second photo shows the problem snap, with both of those tabs, not worn off, but bent inward severely, so that they no longer fall into the recess on the snap. I could probably bend these tabs back outward, but that bending weakens the metal, making them more likely to shear off completely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #30 August 20, 2003 QuoteSo are you saying everyone is wrong, it's the newest thing out on the market? I have said that nowhere. Please don't attempt to put words in my mouth. "Old" is a relative term. Some people buy new rigs every year, while others use a rig until it's no longer servicable. Since my riggers are still repacking the reserve in this one for me, then you may assume that it is somewhere inbetween those two extremes. QuoteI'd have to venture to say... In other words, you don't really know, but you're going to jump to a conclusion anyway. Go right ahead. Are you guys who are concerned about "age" suggesting that rigs should have some finite life span to them and automatically be retired after a certain number of years? If so, how old is "too old"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #31 August 20, 2003 QuoteThe older a peice of gear is the more likely it will be "worn in". It's just odds, of course some people might have a rig that is over 20 years old and has less than a thousand jumps on it Correct - that's why age is not a factor. It's the number of jumps that is what counts. And if you know what that number is, then you don't have to make an unreliable guess based upon age. I know what that number is, and have stated it: 1,500 jumps. When you use the phrase "more likely", you're making a general assumption, that is really just a wild guess. And you don't have to guess with my situation, because I've told you the applicable number of jumps as an indicator of wear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #32 August 20, 2003 QuoteI have 30 year old rig in my closet that looks like it's off the shelf. Lions and tigers and old rigs, oh my! Some people here are going to suggest that your rig is "too old" and is therefore dangerous to jump. :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #33 August 20, 2003 QuoteAre you guys who are concerned about "age" suggesting that rigs should have some finite life span to them and automatically be retired after a certain number of years? If so, how old is "too old"? There's a movement in the rigger community to get gear that is 20 years old grounded, specifically reserves. Atleast thats how it was explained to me by a rigger that went to PIA and was listening to people talk about it.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutesj 0 #34 August 20, 2003 QuoteAre you guys who are concerned about "age" suggesting that rigs should have some finite life span to them and automatically be retired after a certain number of years? If so, how old is "too old"? In germany a rig can't be jumped after 15 years. You need a check for every part every 2 years and reserve and rig needed to be replaced after that. You might find a rigger who declares it airworthy for another 2 years but after this it needs to be replaced. I am not saying that this is very good practice in general or has anything to do with your b-12 snaps but it limits some risks. Steffen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #35 August 20, 2003 Quote***There's a movement in the rigger community to get gear that is 20 years old grounded, specifically reserves. There might not be much opposition to that when only reserve chutes are targeted. But for main chutes and rigs, I think it will touch off a firestorm of protest. Gear should be judged airworthy based upon objective evaluation of its condition. Not on some arbitrary age limit. Just look at what the airlines are doing to their pilots, forcing them to retire at age 60, regardless of their qualifications... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #36 August 20, 2003 QuoteIn germany a rig can't be jumped after 15 years. Yikes, I don't agree with that at all. There must be a lot of perfectly good older gear lying around over there. You should send them to America so that jumpers just off student status can buy a good rig, cheap. :-) This is why I hate "one size fits all" simplistic solutions. In the zeal to make everyone safe with a blanket rule, many people will get screwed. I'm in favor of individual objective evaluations. When riggers refuse to service it because they consider it no longer airworthy, then it's time to retire it. But retirement should not be based upon some arbitrary age limit, regardless of actual usage or condition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #37 August 20, 2003 While I agree with a 30 year life limit, I think it should be the rigger packing the rig who takes the responsibility of deciding airworthyness. It should not be an organization like the PIA. It smells too much like built in obsolesence.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #38 August 20, 2003 QuoteJust look at what the airlines are doing to their pilots, forcing them to retire at age 60, Little different situation.regardless of their qualifications... Little different situation. An airline pilot is reponsible for a couple hundred lives. Maybe mine.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutesj 0 #39 August 20, 2003 QuoteYikes, I don't agree with that at all. There must be a lot of perfectly good older gear lying around over there. You should send them to America so that jumpers just off student status can buy a good rig, cheap. :-) That is what I did. I sold my perfectly good Vector 2 (12 years) in the US. QuoteWhen riggers refuse to service it because they consider it no longer airworthy Yeah, but in that case it is based on a personal opinion. If one says it can't be used anymore and you go shopping for a second or third opinion - you know... In the first place everybody hates it if he needs to trash (or sell it to russia :-) his gear after a certain period but if you think of all the improvements in the last x years it might be worth considering new state of the art gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #40 August 20, 2003 No one here has said that if your gear is over X age, you should retire it. Now you're putting words in our mouths. We are only curious as to the age of your rig. Obviously if your rigger is repacking the reserve, and hasn't said anything to you about replacing the rig, or about it's airworthyness, it is still very much airworthy. For clerification, age does have an effect on a rigs airworthyness. Over time, the fabric in the MLW and other areas of the rig can wear out, for the simple cause of the environment. Just like people, rigs CAN become a bit weaker when they're aged. Like I said, no one here is saying that that's the case with your rig. And there's no way to tell, online, if your rig needs replacing due to age, and everyone here knows this. We're just curious, so please, indulge us? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutesj 0 #41 August 20, 2003 QuoteFor clerification, age does have an effect on a rigs airworthyness I belive in this too. But it is different how you store it and where you use it. If you jump a lot in the dessert it might wear much faster. Another question: Age isn't the main factor when a rig becomes weaker. For how many jumps can you use a rig (average). Just curious what you guys think... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #42 August 20, 2003 I'm really not opposed to anyone jumping anything they want. Yes indeed the failure could have been from abuse, or a single traumatic incident, but the component in question is attached to container older than some of the newbies on DZ's today. I didn't think you had put 4000 jumps on one rig. My rig is almost six years old, and has 2000+ jumps on it. I would have shelved it this season if the entire harness hadn't been replaced two years ago. Just food for thought, but my concern would be regarding a FAILURE of the harness (stiching most likely). Wear is one thing, and you can see that coming, but a complete failure of the harness is something your reserve, Cypress, RSL, colins lanyard, skyhook, or pop-top can't save you from. Another post , I think in the gear and rigging forum, has some pics of a complete riser failure after a hard opening. Fourtunately, the harness held together, and the jumper landed safely under a reserve. The container used was a newer Javelin, and it was sent in for a complete inspection and repair. I would consider this to be the "worst case scenario", and would not want an "older' harness around me if I should find myself in this situation. When you could inexpensively replace your container with a more modern piece of equipment, it would seem penny-wise and pound-foolish to repair what is admittedly an older container (I'm taking your lack of willingness to reveal the age as an admittance that it is old enough for you to want to keep your mouth shut). Good luck with whatever you deciede to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #43 August 20, 2003 Exposure to the elements is a factor. UV, Sand, Salt, Acids, oils... etc. A few years ago, I handled WonderHog number 10. It was on some shelf after it had been jumped a few times. The condition of the rig was great. The design, well, it's some what antiquated. No reason to resurrect it. About 4 years ago, I put a brown harness on another rig. Good ole Bounce and Blend colors, dark Green, Brown Tan. That rig is now 4 years old... oh can I say that?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #44 August 21, 2003 Quoteif you think of all the improvements in the last x years it might be worth considering new state of the art gear. What makes you think my gear is not "state of the art?" This sounds like another one of those assumptions that so many people are making in here... How new does a rig have to be for you to consider it to be "state of the art"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #45 August 21, 2003 Quotethe component in question is attached to a container older than some of the newbies on DZ's today. False! I've never stated the age, so it is impossible for you to make such a statement. This is yet another example of certain people in this thread making incredible leaps of illogic, unsupported by any evidence. I hope that this is not representative of how most skydivers reason. QuoteWhen you could inexpensively replace your container with a more modern piece of equipment, it would seem penny-wise and pound-foolish to repair what is admittedly an older container Ditto again. QuoteI'm taking your lack of willingness to reveal the age as an admittance that it is old enough for you to want to keep your mouth shut. And a third time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #46 August 21, 2003 QuoteQuoteif you think of all the improvements in the last x years it might be worth considering new state of the art gear. What makes you think my gear is not "state of the art?" This sounds like another one of those assumptions that so many people are making in here... How new does a rig have to be for you to consider it to be "state of the art"? Boy, do you like to bait people or what?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
