Mikki_ZH 0 #1 June 10, 2004 I'm about to buy a new rig (probably Vector 3). I would like to hear some opinions on what you guys think is better for freeflying: throw-out or pull-out.Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyswc 0 #2 June 10, 2004 I jump pull out , and I like it better than my old boc. The thing with pullout is you almost eliminate horseshoes and/or prematures , but you have a greater chance for a total Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #3 June 10, 2004 Pro's and Cons for both. See here...http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=114198;search_string=throw%20out%20vs;#114198 Hope this helps.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #4 June 10, 2004 Thanks, I was searching under pull out vs throw out and did not find anything....Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #5 June 10, 2004 No problem - one other consideration that i heard a friend of mine mention, he jumped a pull out until he started jumping camera and then found that with big camera wings on, it was a bit of a fiddle to get the PC into clean air as it would flop about in the burble of the wing. Bear in mind this is only hearsay on my part though - anyone more experienced care to comment?Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeeeeeeFly 0 #6 June 10, 2004 I jump a pull out, and have had this delimma regarding the clean air as well. I have also had a few floating puds. But I haven't had and total mals. I like the pull out and I have learned to expose the pilot chute to clean air. I have had the pilot chute pop into my burble a couple of times but all I do is look over my right shoulder and it seems to do the trick. The only thing that took me time to get used to was the one second delay that takes place as the pilot chute grabs air. Where with a throw out you can feel things happening as soon as you let the pilot chute go. I don't mind the delay being that I am flying something that is rather aggressive any how. try and demo something if possible or check out the system better before buying... ~G~ "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #7 June 10, 2004 I have about 1000 jumps with a pull-out. It's a really secure feeling knowing that the only way to get your container open is by you pulling, and the no horseshoe thing is pretty nice. However check, re-check and check again to make sure the PC's cocked. I've had two packers pack me totals with an un-cocked PC. There was another one where I pulled the dbag out of the container and it finally opened. Thoes were all on a Javelin. When I started jumping a Vector, I went back to the BOC. I was also thinking of doing some Birdman stuff and you can't with a pull-out. However the new Spandura BOC is really snug and I don't think you'd have any problems with it. Also if you do go pullout, remember to size the container a slight bigger since you'll be packing the PC/bridle inside. my .02______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #8 June 11, 2004 I started jumping pull outs during before I had 20 jumps, I liked the system a lot, and would still be jumping it today if I could check the kill line once its been packed, (gettin old, forgettin shit)......... never had a problem with it, but nowdays I jump a throwout. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #9 June 12, 2004 Quotebut you have a greater chance for a total I don't see why.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #10 June 12, 2004 QuoteNo problem - one other consideration that i heard a friend of mine mention, he jumped a pull out until he started jumping camera and then found that with big camera wings on, it was a bit of a fiddle to get the PC into clean air as it would flop about in the burble of the wing. Bear in mind this is only hearsay on my part though - anyone more experienced care to comment? I jump a big wing often and never had a problem. YMMV.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 June 12, 2004 QuoteI was also thinking of doing some Birdman stuff and you can't with a pull-out. Never had a problem with it.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #12 June 12, 2004 You can pack a PC on a TO so it will deploy if the bridle is pulled. So you can Quotealmost eliminate horseshoes with a TO as well. With a freefly pud like on my Wings, which is kinda the same thing as the PO handle setup, you eliminate the chance for a premmy just as well. So IMO toanswer whether PO or TO is better for freeflying, it doesn't make a difference. If you get a TO, make sure you get a secure handle (aka freefly pud). My personal preference (only like 10-20 jumps on PO) is throwout.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #13 June 12, 2004 QuoteQuoteI was also thinking of doing some Birdman stuff and you can't with a pull-out. Never had a problem with it. From the BirdMan manual: Do NOT use a pull-out pilot chute birdMan manual here: http://www.bird-man.com/images/attachments/media/01_20_2004-Flight%20manual.pdf ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #14 June 14, 2004 But who are they to say what you can or cannot use..... They are just the designer of the suit Maybe it's different with the Matter suits.....______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pawl 0 #15 June 14, 2004 when I first got my own gear I had Throw out (Leg mount ) I then went to Pull out and loved it, but had a few floating puds and saw a few premature openings on the same system (Old style 'banana' that was tucked into two 'envelopes' and was easily knocked out) I was doing a bunch of camera work back then and really didn’t want to video if anyone in the formation was jumping a pull-out. I had seen too many prematures ! I went back to throw out (BOC) I always preferred the Pull out's ease of packing, tidiness, and clean deployments and so went back to Pull out when the pud and Velcro system came out and will stay there."Africa is not for sissies" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 June 14, 2004 QuoteFrom the BirdMan manual: Do NOT use a pull-out pilot chute I am fully aware of that. I am a BMI. I wrote a portion of the original BMI program along with Ryan Gifford at AAP. I simply stated I've never had a problem with it. I'll add no one has been able to sucessfuly show me why you shouldn't use one.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #17 June 14, 2004 Ok, I guess the best thing to do is ask our own BMCI , SkyMonkeyOne what his opinion is. Or better yet why doesn't someone ask Jari? On a technical side of things, it is probably due to the fact if you do have a lazy pull and the PC gets in your burble, it might cause problems. I'm sure you can get enough forward speed to get it out of your burble but do you really want to doing that at pull time? It is probably a saftey aspect that Birdman didn't want new wing-suit jumpers to have to deal with. just my .01 .....______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 June 15, 2004 Quotesure you can get enough forward speed to get it out of your burble but do you really want to doing that at pull time? Using foward speed to clear your burble is a bad idea. First to generat the foward speed you'd need to inflate some wing making the burble bigger. Second you'll make the eventual opening worse. Tucking the wings in, roping the knees slightly, and giving a "check-check" over your shoulders like in AFF works real well. My set-up uses 90 inch bridles from bag to P/C. I have done a few test jumps poping the pin and letting the P/C pretty much just lay in the container while leaving the wings fully inflated. When I finaly performed the "check-check" I got the deployment the same as normal. When deploying a pull out on a wingsuit you can expose the P/C to the relative wind everybit as much as a throw out. The key is being comfortable with the system in the first place.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #19 June 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteFrom the BirdMan manual: Do NOT use a pull-out pilot chute I am fully aware of that. I am a BMI. I wrote a portion of the original BMI program along with Ryan Gifford at AAP. I simply stated I've never had a problem with it. I'll add no one has been able to sucessfuly show me why you shouldn't use one. Like you said though, JP, your mileage may vary. I can only think of you and one other person who regularly jumps a pull-out with a wingsuit. I also know plenty of people who regularly "get away" with jumping standard length bridles and unmodified containers, but in my opinion they are simply asking for an eventual massive PC hesitation. This is the wrong forum for it, but the real reason that pull-outs are a bad idea for wingsuit jumping is that they are designed to be extracted out and then pulled out of your hand by the wind at arm extension. This force could easilly cause a sketched out, inexperienced wingsuit pilot to barrel roll at pull time. Ultimately, after a person gets to a base level of proficiency in his/her wingsuit, I don't give a rats ass what they use. I will simply not take a First Flight candidate on a wingsuit flight with a pull-out for the reason I stated. Same argumentative facts used against "spinny" canopies in wingsuits. Jump what you like, after you get the suit figured out. Chuck BMCI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #20 June 15, 2004 QuoteThis is the wrong forum for it, Yeah, I thought about getting it moved.Quotedesigned to be extracted out and then pulled out of your hand by the wind at arm extension. In my experience using a Pull out in this way only accomplishes elbow injury. I have always extracted and thrown the P/C and Pud combo as far away from my body as possible much like a throw out. I believe it reinforces the "throwing motion, as I see a lot of jumpers with throw outs who simply extract and drop their P/C's into the windstream. QuoteI will simply not take a First Flight candidate on a wingsuit flight with a pull-out for the reason I stated. Same argumentative facts used against "spinny" canopies in wingsuits. Jump what you like, after you get the suit figured out. Exactly. Nor will I train someone in any type of wingsuit with such gear. I want to eliminate all "wierd factors" and simplify the jump. I was trying (in this thread) to get a couple of people to think for themselves rather than run around inside the "box".---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #21 June 16, 2004 Enjoyed the discussion. I'm talking out of my ass when it comes to BM stuff, (that's why I asked Chuck to comment). Since you want to think out of the box, anyone ready for a who should exit first discussion....... just kidding______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #22 June 16, 2004 Quoteanyone ready for a who should exit first discussion Me.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
