Sit fly - just *once* more...

[jmidgley 0]

...for the slow ones at the back of the class.

Like another poster, I have problems getting upright from falling stable on my back. What I can't get from any of the answers is where the force is coming from to counter the drag of my legs, which must be moving the 'centre of drag' forward of my c of g.

There must be some technique you competent sit-fliers are using to counter that rotation - some have said reach your arms behind the line of your shoulders, but others have pounced on that and said don't.

So how can you have a stable position where so much drag (the legs) is present forward and below what must be roughly the c of g (somewhere round the lower torso, depending on consumption of beer/burgers)?

It's obviously a secret you all have the answer to, and nobody goes home till I find out the answer!

Regards
John Midgley

[Brains 2]

Ok, i am probably going to get flamed like no tomorrow for this because i am not an excellent freeflyer. I can tell you what i was told by some very competent fliers and it worked for me: When you feel yourself in the position on your back. Move your body like you are trying to stand up. Sit in a chair with your ass towards the front and lean back. Then feel what it is like to rotate forward and stand up. That is what you are shooting for. When i am on my back, i lean my head towards my feet then push down with my feet like i am trying to stand. It is a feeling you will get with practice. I hope this helps, if not, sorry. There are plenty of great ff'ers on this forum who might be able to help you, otherwise the old addage; It's nothing 1,000 jumps won't fix.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[freeflydrew 0]

Quote

...for the slow ones at the back of the class.


So how can you have a stable position where so much drag (the legs) is present forward and below what must be roughly the c of g (somewhere round the lower torso, depending on consumption of beer/burgers)?

With practice, you will figure this out...
For now, you will want to not wear baggy pants, instead go for a long sleeve shirt and shorts. At least with this outfit you'll have an easier time dropping your legs down.

-drew

[davelepka 4]

Thats a fine question. Your arms need to be back behind your c of g. When viewed from the side, your torso should be vertical, with your legs extending forward, and your arms an equal distance to the rear. Your lower leg (from the knee down) needs to also be vertical, so your arms are only balancing out the force from your thighs and bottoms of your feet.
This is the "ideal" configuration, and you will go through many variations of this while you learn. As your skills progress, you will learn to bring your legs more underneath you, allowing you to bring your arms more forward, and reach out to take grips. When doing this you will spread your legs out to the side in order to control your fall rate.

In your early attempts, try to keep your legs together, and close to your torso, minimizimg the drag they will create. This will make it easier for you to push yourself upright by forcing your arms behind your c of g.

For the really slow ones, on the short bus, push your hips forward, get your legs out, wait for the beep, and deploy.

[fundgh 0]

Sometimes the more experienced ff's have forgotten how to LEARN to sit. As a current student of ff...I would say this: It has been a bit easier for me (and my buddy) to stand than sit. I found it easier to go to a near stand (legs slightly bent) and then progress to control fall rate. AS long as you can fly the recliner, it should be easy to go into a stand and then bring your legs up. Not that this is the RIGHT way, but it seemed to work quite well for me!

...FUN FOR ALL!

[Snowflake 0]

Quote

Your arms need to be back behind your c of g. When viewed from the side, your torso should be vertical, with your legs extending forward, and your arms an equal distance to the rear. Your lower leg (from the knee down) needs to also be vertical, so your arms are only balancing out the force from your thighs and bottoms of your feet.

I'm gonna have to disagree with that. Your arms go straight out from the shoulders bent 90 degrees at the elbow. I think teaching arms behind you invites bad body position especially bending at the waist, which will only have to be corrected later.

I say do what you need to get there but be aware of body position that needs to be corrected. You should be working to get the 90's. 90 degrees at the knees, waist, shoulders and elbows head up on a straight line from your spine(not slightly bent like I still do). This will not happen over night and but do the jumps and it will come

PS it took me around 10 jumps just to get stable and then I was backsliding and fell slow etc......it takes time

[davelepka 4]

Seriously? You haven't actually answered the question of "What keeps me from going over backwards with my legs in front of my CG?" What do you propose will balance out the drag created by legs in front of the CG? The position you're describing provides for legs, and forearms in front of the torso. Actually your position will encourage bending forward at the waist in order to bring the CG up and over the legs. I have flown this postion while taking grips in the sit, but it is much more difficult than the basic, vertical torso, with equal drag front and rear (as viewed from the side).

I may be wrong (I don't think so) but if you think I am please include a pic of you with this arm postion so I can better understand your point. While you may be able to "hold' this postion, does it promote forward or backward movement? I can fly up right with my arms at my sides, and my hands tucked under my legstraps, but I can't move around very well, and I would not suggest this to a begining freeflier.

[indyz 1]

Quote

So how can you have a stable position where so much drag (the legs) is present forward and below what must be roughly the c of g (somewhere round the lower torso, depending on consumption of beer/burgers)?

I use basically the same position as "Neutral" on this page, adjusting my arm position somewhat as necessary for movement and turning. For me, however, my arm position wasn't as important in learning a stable sit as learning to be positive with my feet, legs, and hips.

[Snowflake 0]

no pictures but heres some video http://www.geneluster.com/Video_Clips/Skydiving/more%20noise.wmv . Now you'll note that my arms angle back a little but thats due more to me being bent at the neck(chin needs to be up and chest needs to be pushed out a little). You can even see me try to straighten up after the first 360. I cannot explain the CG thing other then to say you have to work your legs. Also it's not just CG you have to include center of pressure into the equation.....I'll look it up tonight. I also understand why you say that having my forearms in front will cause me to lean foreward but it doesn't and I cannot explain it other than to say thats what I was taught and I had to unlearn some bad habits after I started coach jumps.

I've had this argument with a number of people all with lots more time and jumps in the sport just like you. I've picked up another nickname because of it, and I'll believe what I was taught about sitting before almost anything else. Maybe I'm thick, but I just might be right .

On a side note one way I go faster in a sit is to put my arms straight over my head shouldn't I fall over due to CG imbalance?

[davelepka 4]

So if you've gone to the trouble to change your name due to this same issue once, doesn't that mean anything to you?

Freefall is all about balance. If you can present a blanced body position to the wind, you will fall straight down. It's that simple. There are several variations of balanced body positions, all of which will have you falling straight down. The key is to teach the ones that are the most centered, that is they allow for the greatest movement in all directions. This is what will make you an effcetive flyer.

Here's an example. If I'm on my belly with a tandem, and I go below them, and sit up on the camerra wings, head high, feet up (but still on my belly); I can go straight down, but lack the mobility I would have if I were on level, in a more neutral boxman position.

As for your question regarding your putting your arms up, and why that doesn't cause your legs to push you over backwards, I have a couple of ideas. First off, how are you sure that you are continuing to fall straight down when you speed up? While a slight forward or backward movement may not pose a problem (or really even be that noticable) on the dives you are currently doing, when you try that with a skyball, or when trying to dock on a formation, the problem will reveal itself. Second, and more importantly, why are you using your arms to control the fall rate? Your legs are a much more effective control surface for speeding up (as in, pushing them together and under you, into a stand up). The idea that you would maintain your leg position (in fromt of your c of g), and just throw your arms up to speed up while flying head up shows a fundemental misunderstading of the principals of head-up flying. Maybe take this, and the whole "already changed your nickname once" thing into consideration before A) Dishing out advice, and B) Dishing out advice to the contrary of those with more experience, information, and understanding then you.

[Snowflake 0]

I didn't change my name some undesirables at my DZ came up with a new nickname based on my arguments. I actually could take the name as quite a compliment and aspire to just a fraction of my namesakes greatness.....ROTFL.

Now for arguments sake lets say I learn to sit with my arms behind me as you suggest. In a perfect sit (all 90's) your arms behind you will give you foreward motion. Unless you have your legs tucked under you or your leaning foreward. So if I sit with my arms behind me I'll either zooming or compensting with some other part of my body right?

I use my arms over my head as a tool. When someone is a touch low I raise my arms in varying degrees, if they're low I stand if they're really low I stand and "throw my hands over my head". To use your belly jumping analogy. You wouldnt dive at someone a foot lower then you. You would arch more, same concept. No need to use a sledgehammer on a finishing nail.

You have a lot more time in the sport but using your logic

Quote

B) Dishing out advice to the contrary of those with more experience, information, and understanding then you.

I have to stand by what I was taught, since it was by someone who has more of all the above than you do

[jmidgley 0]

Well that's certainly helped clarify it for me! You can see how a certain amount of confusion might creep in, can't you?

On a more general note, it does cast a certain amount of doubt on the whole 'get coaching' thing. I've heard directly contrary advice (hence my question here) from people who have been coached - one of them by no less an authority than Babylon.

Ah well, nothing that 10,000 jumps won't sort out (approx 100 years at current rates of progress!).

Regards
John

[Snowflake 0]

Sorry to muddy the waters for ya everyone has an opinion. I'll make a couple of points and let this one die

1. Send of an email on the subject to Alchemy and Babylon see what they have to say.

2. Get the chronichle videos watch how they fly head up especially Omar and Olav

3.For what it's worth I've seen two former world champions teach that your arms get bent at the 90's in a sit

4. Theres more than cg involved you have to account for center of pressure. On your belly your cp and cg are in about the same spot but in a sit your cg will be in your torso and your cp will be in front of your face this(edit to add it actually may be below your cg but either way the concept applies) is part of what makes sitting unstable. I think I explained that right I'm still looking for the article I read it in because it has lots of detail that I can't remember now.....wait your cg and cp want to be in equalibrium. thats why you have to work your legs.....if you relax in a sit no matter where your arms are you'll fall over on your back so your cp and cg are closer to equalibrium....yeah thats what it is. So no matter where your arms are your cg and cp are going to want to move to equalibrium and you fight that by "working your legs"

http://www.zct.co.uk/skydivemag/pages/articles/apr00/ontheedge.htm

Not quite what I was looking for but close

5. A lot of our argument will be moot to you until you get stable so just work on using those legs and getting stable. Once your stable start to work on body position

[rapper4mpi 0]

As an experienced flyer in a sit and instructor. Here's a no-nonsense answer to your question. Try getting your legs farther apart, as in, spread out more to the side when you are in your sit. You still want the "90 degree" end in the waste and knees as a neuteral position, but with the legs to the sides more, you will have less drag towards the front of your body. Good luck!
-Rap