andyflylife 0 #1 June 30, 2003 First time on Dz.com forum (just signed up) but hoping for some good advice. I recently got a Talon as a cheap set of kit just for the next 50 jumps or so. Its an early one probably 8 or so years old. Does anybody have any experience of modifying them for freefly? I know its not ideal because of the velcro riser covers but ive seen it done with old Vectors and this Talon has a easily modded main pin cover! Its mainly just so i could possibly do a few starter sit jumps, nothing head-down though. Any advice would be nice, Blue skies from Andy. "swooper 24/7, 365!" ME on Myspace My Project playlist Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 July 1, 2003 A regular Talon, or a Talon 2 or a Talon FS?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andyflylife 0 #3 July 1, 2003 Its an original Talon!! Its in good condition though, good velcro on riser covers. Andy. "swooper 24/7, 365!" ME on Myspace My Project playlist Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 July 1, 2003 Alright, velcro = bad for FF. Even if you keep the velcro in great condition, its still not real safe. With that said, I FF an old Vector 2 for almost 200 jumps. I did not do HD, because of the riser covers, but I did a lot of sitflying. How secure is the BOC, the main and reserve flaps and how is the bridle protection? I've seen Talon 2s and Talon FS'es used for FF a decent amount without problem, but I haven't seen people use an original Talon. You best course of action would be to show a very experienced FFer at your DZ and to show your rigger so they can help you decide if it is safe or not.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andyflylife 0 #5 July 1, 2003 Thanks for the advice, not ready to sit jump quite yet but i'll get an opinion from my local dz and perhaps the CCI!! Before i upset anyone or give myself a premature opening (ouch!) Anyone else used a Talon for sitflying? Blue skies Andy. "swooper 24/7, 365!" ME on Myspace My Project playlist Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #6 July 1, 2003 Read your PMsMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #7 July 1, 2003 QuoteFirst time on Dz.com forum (just signed up) Case of Beer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! =========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 562 #8 July 2, 2003 Rigging Innovations will cheerfully update your original Talon with main riser tuck tabs, but they will charge you more than US$100 because the upadte includes replacing the riser covers and reserve top flap. They also installed "bridle hider flaps" on a few original Talons. Hint, it is the same pattern as the flap for pull out deployment. Incidentally, the original Talon was discontinued in 1994. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #9 July 2, 2003 QuoteEven if you keep the velcro in great condition, its still not real safe. If this statement is true, why the hell do they velcro your cutaway (and possibly reserve) handle in place??? Have they ever come undone in freefall??? "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 July 2, 2003 Different situation and application then stuff like pin flaps and riser covers.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #11 July 2, 2003 How so? Is the function of velco on the riser covers not meant to keep the the covers closed, and the function of the velcro on the handles not meant to keep handles in place? Velcro will work in either application, if it's properly maintained. People don't want to mess with sending their rig in to have the velcro replaced every couple of hundred jumps, so the industry went to tuck tabs (which still require maintenance, just less frequently). But it doesn't mean that properly maintained velcro won't work. That said, rather than have the velcro replaced on my Dolphin when it needs it, I'll have the tuck tab mod done instead, and won't have to worry about keeping the velcro maintained in the future... "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 July 2, 2003 The application of the velcro as well as the forces put on the velcro are differnet in those two spots. Freeflying with a rig that has velcro riser covers and/or pin covers/flaps may sound ok if you keep the velcro well maintained, BUT it will bite you eventually. Trust me, I know from experience AND I've seen it happen to quite a few others. Infact, I saw it just weekend before last on a FFer's rig that swears by a certain pop-top rig with a lot of velcro on it. He was headdown with both his riser covers flapping in the wind. Sounds safe, huh?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petetheladd 0 #13 July 2, 2003 QuoteI recently got a Talon as a cheap set of kit just for the next 50 jumps or so. I also have an original talon and do freeflying/sitflying with it. The easy mods I have are 1) Changed it to BOC 2) Elastic band on the reserve flap(rigger approved) as it will work free in sitflying. 3) Very little bridle exposure, goes from flap into BOC with only a tiny piece of bridle exposed I find the big problem with it is the shoulder straps are widely spaced which is not good for headdown. No, Not without incident Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #14 July 2, 2003 QuoteHe was headdown with both his riser covers flapping in the wind. Sounds safe, huh? And the velcro had how many jumps on it? Spandex BOC's fail too, when they're not properly maintained, yet they're used on the majority of rigs these days, including the ones that bill themselves as the most FF friendly... Quote The application of the velcro as well as the forces put on the velcro are differnet in those two spots How so? Hook on one side, pile on the other, push together to hold. Wind forces at any given speed acting with equal forces on any surface presented to the wind. The reason it holds on the handles is that it's almost always working at full strength, because the handles are removed much less frequently than other components that are velcro'd closed, and velcro degrades with each use. "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #15 July 2, 2003 Well, I can understand if you don't believe me, e-mail Max Cohn, Bill Booth and some other industry leaders in FF and Rigging, they'll tell you the same thing I did.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #16 July 2, 2003 I'm certainly not arguing that the current crop of tuck tab configurations available on H&C systems is a better alternative than velcro, because it is... tuck tabs degrade at a much slower rate than velcro, providing better protection over a much larger number of jumps, and a greatly reduced maintenance overhead... but you didn't answer my question about how many jumps he had on the velcro on that racer... "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #17 July 2, 2003 I don't know how many, but I know he also understand the problems with velcro and replaces it often. So, I would think, just by knowing him, that its still in good condition.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #18 July 2, 2003 Quotebut you didn't answer my question about how many jumps he had on the velcro on that racer... As much as I'd like to stay out of this, well that's not true, I just don't have a lot of time to be very eloquent. First of all If you care for my credentials feel free to PM me cuz it's not in my Profile. New velcro and old velcro on racers... generally larger and older racers wouldn't matter how new it was to keep the sides closed. Velcro sheer force is very high. Peel force is not so high. Very often the side covers leave a gap at the top of the reserve between the small riser cover on the shoulder and where the side cover ends. If there is a gap there, air will QUITE SIMPLY get in the side cover and peel it open. Since the ENTIRE side is peeled open, the entire riser is now exposed. Not just the part near the shoulder. The riser terminates at or near the main tray. It's exposed there too. This allows some of the line that is in the main tray to pull out. The riser is free to flail about even more. Any thing else? TimMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #19 July 2, 2003 QuoteAny thing else? Cool! I'm not so much looking for an argument, as I am an education! I'll PM you, because I have some more questions... thanks for your reply! "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #20 July 2, 2003 I jump a Talon2 with the tuc tabs and have had 0 problems sit flying with it!! Tried a couple of HD's and had 0 problems there too!! jasonFreedom of speech includes volume Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
