Newbies - start with tandems or something else?

[DSE 3]

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not to mention that a four-way team doesn't have a trapdoor that can kill one or all three...

But not all tandem gear cause trapdoor either..

So you know for certain what tandem gear this DZ is using? I don't.

[davelepka 4]

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not to mention that a four-way team doesn't have a trapdoor that can kill one or all three...

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But not all tandem gear cause trapdoor either..

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So you know for certain what tandem gear this DZ is using? I don't.

Regardless, every tandem rig has multiple deployment handles, and there are two brains and four hands at work during freefall. Trap door or no trap door, a canopy can appear at any time.

[DSE 3]

Agreed.
I'm particularly cognizant of a trapdoor effect from a Strong system, having seen it, and having watched a friend undergo months of PT and recovery time. It kept him out of the air for the year. The hole was huge. My friend had over 10k skydives at the time, and still got caught. Just lucky no one was killed. Only his experience saved him from anything worse than what he got, and that was bad enough.
Trapdoor or no, I've twice seen camera people fall into the burble and land on the TI as well.

Never seen a camera or RW person entangle with the drogue, as Jarno posted up-thread.

[davelepka 4]

I've been filming Strong rigs for a few years, and their trap door pales in comparison to the old Vector tandem.

The tandem pair drops twice as far on the Vector, it's crazy.

If anyone doesn't know this already, each brand of tandem rig has it's own traits from fall rates to trap doors. If you find yourself filming a brand you're not used to, be aware that things you are used to may be different, adjust your plan accordingly. Different TIs and different planes will also throw you curveballs if you're nto careful.

If you find yourself at a boogie or visiting a DZ where they recruit to you shoot a tandem, keep these things on mind. Everyone wants to show up and be the hero, but dial it back a notch and ease into the flow in your new surroundings.

[BMFin 0]

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So you know for certain what tandem gear this DZ is using? I don't.

I never said their DZ ´s gear wouldnt cause trap door..

I was simply trying to tell you that it differs on what gear you use.

[BMFin 0]

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I'm particularly cognizant of a trapdoor effect from a Strong system, having seen it, and having watched a friend undergo months of PT and recovery time.

I have found Strong trap door almost non existant.

The thing is that the drogue wont uncock with strong like it does with vector for example. Therefore there is no trapdoor really..

[PhreeZone 15]

I have never videoed Strong's but Vector2's and Sigma's have the trapdoor also. That is the vast majority of the Tandem systems out there since the majority of the others are clones of these.

I started out with freefly video for a while then moved to 4 way. I shot freefly while learning to shoot 4 way for a while and moved up to 6-10 way. I eventually got my Tandem rating so I could start to video tandems.I let the rating expire while still in the probation jumps since Tandems were not for me. I started videoing tandems on my own dime for two dozen or so jumps. At this point I had 500+ jumps. I added stills into the mix at about 900 jumps. I was one of the first 2-3 in the area to shoot digital stills. I started by taking stills on jumps when the person didn't pay for them and reviewed them at home. After a dozen or so of these I added my name to the stills work list.

The skills from 4 way and freefly video were invaluable to safely learn what to do on tandems. I'll admit I have screwed up on some tandems when learning and put my self into places I avoid now.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[DSE 3]

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I'm particularly cognizant of a trapdoor effect from a Strong system, having seen it, and having watched a friend undergo months of PT and recovery time.

I have found Strong trap door almost non existant. Therefore there is no trapdoor really..

Well...may be non-existent in your world, but I've got at least 400 jumps with Strong systems, and vid of the person mentioned above getting caught in the non-existent trapdoor, from a fair distance away.
we're now all Vector, which is more pronounced, so I've changed the way I fly when I know we're near deployment.

In any event, it's a place a camera flyer doesn't want to be during deployment. Back to point, a four way team doesn't have a trapdoor, regardless of what gear they're using. Tandems often do, and it's amplified (or not) depending on the gear used by the tandem instructor.

[hackish 8]

Any insight into why the strong doesn't have a trapdoor effect? We only have eclipse and vector rigs at my DZ and they're pretty much identical except the vector has velcro tabs instead of tuck tabs. Do the strong rigs have the same sort of drogue release or is there something that prevents the drogue from collapsing before linestretch?

Although I've been practising 30 or so jumps with a tandem the people here shit all over you if you don't have an F license and 5000 jumps to do anything but fly a manta 288. Advice given in person has always been vastly different than advice given on the interweb. I agree with a lot of comments - sometimes the TI is all over the place and I spend a lot of time and effort chasing them all over the sky. The local DZ wants to see a B license before I do tandem video but I don't think I could do one good enough that someone would pay for it. Maybe after 100 more practise jumps :)

-Michael

[PhreeZone 15]

Strong's don't collapse the drogue when its released, most other designs do. The non-collapsed drogue does not allow the tandem to accelerate for a long enough time point before the canopy is opening and slowing the tandem down for the trap door to really be noticed, on other rigs the tandem may go drogueless for 1.5+ seconds before the canopy inflates and decelerates the pair. This is one of the reasons that the manufacturers recommend video flyers to have a tandem rating, they understand the gear that they are going to be interacting with.

I recommend the same exact thing in person to everyone I talk to in person, there is one DZ.commer that posts here I provided very similar advise to even though he has 200 more jumps then you do. The DZ I was at this year actually required the tandem video flyers to meet the requirements laid out by the manufacturers. We had a sortage of qualified video flyers so it wasn't done to protect someones video job, it was done because it is the right thing to do.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[velocityphoto 0]

People there shit all over you for not having 5000 jumps for good reason .You don't have experience to be jumping with tandems to begin with .
Get some experience before putting on a camera and be safe not sorry!
Give it some time and experience ,you'll live longer and so will your colleagues.

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[jurgencamps 0]

Look up the incidents with tandems. I think it was in Danmark or Sweden (a long time ago), where a jumper killed his own mother during a tandemjump. She was the passenger and he jumped with the tandempair and crashed on them.

The tandem is a sitting duck. The instructor is almost helpless and can do noting to correct the mistake made by the tandemlurker.

If you do not understand that a Tandeminstructor (DZO, ...) can refuse you to jump with him, you do not understand the dangers. By consequence you have showed that you are not qualified to lurk a tandem.

[BMFin 0]

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Look up the incidents with tandems. I think it was in Danmark or Sweden (a long time ago), where a jumper killed his own mother during a tandemjump. She was the passenger and he jumped with the tandempair and crashed on them.

Any more info about this incident somewhere ?

[PhreeZone 15]

Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? Dropzone.com Report Dropzone.com Discussion
12/26/1998 Maricopa, AZ FFCOL 60 1 Y/Y
Description: An experienced jumper gave his mother a tandem for Christmas. He filmed it. At pull time he found himself "next to the drogue". He hit the deploying main and became wrapped in it. He worked his way out of the mess but snagged a line with his foot. As he fell clear, the line broke and he hit the Tandem pair. He continued in freefall and deployed his main. He landed safely. The tandem master and possibly the passenger were knocked out. The tandem slowly spun into the ground. The Tandem Master is alive and in the hospital. The passenger (mother) was killed.
Lessons:Colliding with the subject you are filming is a very, very serious error. Everything which occured after this point is only a consequence of that error.


Another issue with the video flyer killing the tandem (instructor in this case):

Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? Dropzone.com Report Dropzone.com Discussion
7/2/2005 Skydive Wayne County, IN FFCOL 37 2300 Y/Y 128 #1716271
Description: During a tandem deployment, there was a collision with the cameraman. The canopy was damaged, but flew one and a half miles from the dropzone. The tandem pair landed and the student was able to unhook himself after finding the instructor unresponsive, and walk half a mile through a corn-field to a road to get help. The tandem instructor died as a result of the collision. The student suffered minor facial lacerations. The cameraman was able to deploy his parachute and landed off near a house. He is being treated in hospital for a crushed pelvis. He also sustained minor injuries to the T-7, L-3 and L-5 vertebrae which should heal without surgery.
Lessons:
USPA Description: This jumper was serving as a tandem instructor on a skydive that was uneventful until main canopy deployment. Before the tandem instructor deployed the main parachute, the videographer floated above the tandem pair to film the opening. The tandem main canopy inflated quickly and surged forward, driving the canopy and tandem pair underneath the videographer, who was still in freefall. The videographer first struck the tandem canopy and then hit the instructor in the back of the head and neck with his pelvis and lower back. The tandem instructor was killed instantly by the collision. The tandem pair landed in a field off the DZ with the brakes of the main canopy still stowed, unguided by either the student or instructor. The student suffered minor facial lacerations but was otherwise unharmed. The videographer suffered severe injuries to his pelvis and back, but he successfully deployed his main parachute and also landed off the drop zone. He is expected to make a full recovery.
USPA Conclusions:The USPA Instructional Rating Manual states that videographers must remain clear of the areas above and below the tandem pair to avoid collisions such as this one. During deployment of a tandem canopy, the videographer must also make sure to leave enough horizontal separation to allow for any movement of the tandem pair during the deployment. Additionally, Skydiver’s Information Manual Section 6-8 covers camera flying recommendations and specifically addresses the risks involved in close-up video of canopy deployments.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[cpoxon 0]

http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?Place=Maricopa&Category=FFCOL

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Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL?
12/26/1998 Maricopa, AZ FFCOL 60 1 Y/Y

Description: An experienced jumper gave his mother a tandem for Christmas. He filmed it. At pull time he found himself "next to the drogue". He hit the deploying main and became wrapped in it. He worked his way out of the mess but snagged a line with his foot. As he fell clear, the line broke and he hit the Tandem pair. He continued in freefall and deployed his main. He landed safely. The tandem master and possibly the passenger were knocked out. The tandem slowly spun into the ground. The Tandem Master is alive and in the hospital. The passenger (mother) was killed.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[BMFin 0]

thanks

[jurgencamps 0]

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Look up the incidents with tandems. I think it was in Danmark or Sweden (a long time ago), where a jumper killed his own mother during a tandemjump. She was the passenger and he jumped with the tandempair and crashed on them.

Any more info about this incident somewhere ?

A similar incident: http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Manual/09351(V2_Manual).pdf go to page 105 in the pdf file

#3 - Current Tandem Instructor
2000 jumps total - 70 Tandem jumps.
Pair exited Cessna 182 at 8,300’. Exit was stable and
drogue was deployed. Solo jumper with 200 jumps
followed Tandem pair and tracked into them about 10
seconds into the dive. Tandem Instructor and possibly
the student were knocked unconscious. Tandem
Instructor regained consciousness and pulled reserve
at 200’. Reserve was pulling the pair upright on
impact.

[jurgencamps 0]

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Look up the incidents with tandems. I think it was in Danmark or Sweden (a long time ago), where a jumper killed his own mother during a tandemjump. She was the passenger and he jumped with the tandempair and crashed on them.

Any more info about this incident somewhere ?

I remember that my tandemexaminator talked about it when I did my tandemcourse. The accident I believe happened in the early 90's I believe. Maybe I am wrong about the country.

[BMFin 0]

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The accident I believe happened in the early 90's I believe. Maybe I am wrong about the country.

From phreezones post :

"12/26/1998 Maricopa, AZ"

[Laszloimage 0]

I see this debate going and going…
It’s all about jump numbers, flying skills, who should, and who should not jump with the tandem. And then I see these comments and questions about “trap door effect” and “no trap door effect”. Honestly if anyone considering him/her self as an experienced camera person SHOULD KNOW about these differences between tandem systems before start filming them.
This is a radical idea but I truly believe filming students (including tandems) the camera person should have some kind of rating. The camera person should understand all aspects of the jump he/she is intending to video or photograph. The instructor is required to have a rating why not the camera guy? The camera person is just as much part of the skydive so he/she should be responsible just as much as the instructors.
It’s a bit scary some of the guys are trying to give advice here about camera work (no doubt with the best intention) but not having enough experience or knowledge of the “game” (the trap door effect is a good example)
…this my two cents

[hackish 8]

Makes sense. How well does the strong fly with a giant drogue inflated behind? To have the best of both worlds you'd almost need the kill line attached via a cascade to the main risers. Don't think every canopy manufacturer would mod their stuff for that!

-Michael

[skydiverton2 0]

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Makes sense. How well does the strong fly with a giant drogue inflated behind? To have the best of both worlds you'd almost need the kill line attached via a cascade to the main risers. Don't think every canopy manufacturer would mod their stuff for that!

-Michael

I'm a TM but I do not know what the hell you are talking about?

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[PhreeZone 15]

Look at the tandem gear really close next time at the dropzone, on a Strong the drogue collapses - after the main is open. On a Vector/Sigma the drogue collapses and pulls the bag out and the drag of the collapsing drogue and the bag move the canopy to line stretch and inflation. The Vector method is much different then the Strong, I prefer the Sigma many times over the Strong's.

Lazlo, if you look at the requirements from UPT to fly with a tandem:

SIGMATANDEMSYSTEMOWNER’SMANUAL
Page2:X Section 5: Student Techniques • Chapter 3 - Other Activities 11301- 00.00.0000
These guidelines are not optional. They must be followed, or the Tandem Instructor and Tandem rig owner will be in
violation of the User Agreement under which Tandem jumping is operated and will consequently no longer be
allowed to legally perform Tandem Jumps.
PARTICIPANTSQUALIFICATIONS
For any relative worker to accompany a Tandem pair, the following criteria must be met:
1) Relative worker must have a minimum of 500 relative work skydives; or
2) Relative worker must be either a current Tandem Instructor or a current AFF jumpmaster.
3) Relative worker must have made at least 100 relative work jumps in the last year.
4) Cameramen must meet all the above guidelines, and in addition, must have at least 100 camera jumps.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Laszloimage 0]

Eric,
I know about those UPT (used to be RWS) requirements. They were on my test too when I got my TM rating... The problem is now days lot of DZs don't mention these "rules". The other thing is the manufactures won't have too much contor over TM anymore. It's USPA and some rules by FAA of course.
The other big issue is the minimum requirements to bacame a TM/I. In my days beside all those jump numbers and bla-bla-bla you needed at least one year of experince of teaching skydiving (AFF, S/L, or IAD rating) prior to obtain a TM rating. Now you can get it after some very easy couch course in the next couple days...
The result is some TM/I's (are they really????) them selves don't know about drouge collapse and such, there're TM Cypress fires, students falling out off the harness, and more. So yes why would camera people know details about different tandem sysytems, and minimum requirements to filming them?
Growing skydiving businesses had lot of infulence to lower the standards to be able to keep up with the demand for staff. It's said but that's what really happened. (I know I work in the sport for ten years)

Otherwise thank you very much for listing those requirements by UPT for tandem camera work!
-Laszlo-

[PhreeZone 15]

Yeah, I made that post and had to run.. I was going to say the requirements are overlooked way too often, even by TI-E's that are under pressure to get another load up with video so they let someone that doesn't meet the requirements shoot to get the day over with. Issue is that once someone gets in you can't get them out. I've also seen some people tag along on tandems that can't get in to simple 4 ways but the TI thinks they can move out of the way if something bad was to happen.

I would totally agree with some sort of rating or endorsement requirement to be able to video students. AFF students require a much higher level of skill then tandems do, I believe you should have a hundred student videos before you video AFF students.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com