Cessna Exits - HowTo?

[hackish 8]

Ok, so I'm inexperienced. I'd like to get into video so I approached a TM about training to do video with him. We discussed how to exit and fly around him and the passenger.

I spent a series of 5 jumps practicing exiting and matching levels. I've been hanging on the strut, back to the prop and on the count just letting go a fraction of a second before they launch. Puts me pretty much level or below them slightly to avoid the drogue. Ok.

Next I did a fun jump with the actual camera on my head. The idea was to do a 3 way and I'd film. Unfortunately this big camera on my head seems to have the tendancy to screw things up. It caught the prop blast and turned me around. As a result I ended up like 50' below the other 2.

The question I have is how as a videographer do you actually deal with letting go of the aircraft? I assume leaving a fraction before the TM is right but what do you do with the forward drive until you're belly to earth?

Also, how many jumps does it take before you can get reliable footage?

The search feature was not able to enlighten me at all.

-Michael

[PhreeZone 15]

The typical progression is to wait until 200 jumps or more to jump a camera per USPA recommendations. Then start out doing RW videos for a few dozen to a couple of hundred because there is a ton to learn about flying for angles and none of those lessons should be learned at the safety or expense of a student. After a bunch of RW videos its usuallt 10-50 Tandem videos until the quality is acceptible to get into the rotation.

RWS requires anyone jumping with a Tandem to have 500 jumps at least so that also usally gives a lot of time to learn how to do the "easy" things like exit and hold someone in frame through out the skydive while adjusting fall rate and proximity with out losing the shot.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[stratostar 5]

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I've been hanging on the strut, back to the prop

Why? I guess you really good at back flying.

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Unfortunately this big camera on my head seems to have the tendancy to screw things up. It caught the prop blast and turned me around.

I'm not buying what your selling here. Sounds like yo uneed more time learning to fly your body without a camera on your head.

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how as a videographer do you actually deal with letting go of the aircraft?

I let go and fly .

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what do you do with the forward drive until you're belly to earth?

If your on the hill and a little early you up track or your on time you fly your slot and get the footage, you have to fly the wind no matter where it's coming from.....FLY IT!

These questions are pretty basic stuff and things one would be learning by making regular jumps and even making training jumps with TM's willing to risk their MFG rating, granted you live in the great white north and have your own rules to follow so I'm not going to play the USPA BSR card. HOWEVER there is a good reason why RWS and Strong both require anyone doing not only RW with TDM's but flying camera to have the 500 jumps.

Make some jumps learn to fly without thinking about it, slow down and take the time to learn.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

These aren't camera flying questions, these are body flying questions. First learn to fly your body then learn to fly a camera.

Trying to do both at the same will only slow your progress on both fronts and possibly endanger yourself and others. Being distracted by a camera, and not being in full control of your body has caused many freefall collisions, and low pulls in the past.

As far as jumping with tandems goes, I highly reccomend you stop. You're exiting on your back, down the hill from the tandem, are you ready for the student to roll them over on their back, and delay the drouge toss?

Do have any idea how quickly they will pick up speed, and which direction they go when they do? Do have any idea what sort of action you need to take?

The bottom line is that beyond the drouge toss, a tandem will fly at a given speed, in a given place in the sky. You can practice your proximity flying with an RW jumper, and gain the same amount of skill as doing with a tandem, without the risk of the exit, and pre-drouge free fall, and without risking the life of an innocent passenger (do you really think the passneger knew that you had 1/5 of the mfgr reccomended experience for lurking a tandem?).

Once you have more experience, then move into jumping with tandems, and figure out the exit, and flying the hill.

[Laszloimage 0]

Just like the rest of the guys responded to you...
Please don't learn very basic flying skills withe tandem!!! That isn't the way to figure things out...
Please go and jump with RW guys and develope you skills there if you want to become a camera man.
I said RW or belly 'cause first we have to learn to walk before we run.
Later on you can practice some free flying as well.
So by then you really have skills to fly witha tandem you should be over at least 500 jumps.
-Laszlo-

ps. I wouldn't ask for advice from a person (TM/I) who lets you go along with the tandem with only 99 jumps. I think that guy is inconsiderate "YAHOO" and easly can kill you with his unprofessional "help".

[DSE 3]

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ps. I wouldn't ask for advice from a person (TM/I) who lets you go along with the tandem with only 99 jumps. I think that guy is inconsiderate "YAHOO" and easly can kill you with his unprofessional "help".

Ditto. Scary to think a TI would be this cavalier with his life, his student's life, or Michael's life.
Wait the jumps. If you can't fly without the camera, you sure as hell can't fly with one, and it's an added distraction.
Does you DZO know you're flying with tandems? He's a very heads-up guy, I'd be extremely surprised if he condones you flying with tandems, let alone with a camera helmet.

[vdschoor 0]

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Does you DZO know you're flying with tandems? He's a very heads-up guy, I'd be extremely surprised if he condones you flying with tandems, let alone with a camera helmet.

you know, from a videographer standpoint all of you are completely correct. Having been flying tandem videos for about 4 years now (which is still pretty short) I see behavior like this a lot.. It seems that standards have gotten lower and lower, now that we have this great thing called DSLR.
[SARCASM]It takes a bit more of an investment to get into flying camera, but he.. if you land with 100 photos of which 30 are sellable, why not put you in the rotation and make money for the dropzone?[/SARCASM]

I'd like to think that I take pride in my work, in my investment (of both time and money) and if I am not feeling 100% on top of my game on a working day, I do pull myself off the rotation for 1 reason only: the customer is paying a LOT of money and deserves a top notch product and if I feel like I am flying below what the customer deserves, I will not work.

To newer camera flyers: know your limitations, just because you got "lucky" with some photos / video does not mean you are a videographer / photographer.
If you exits are not consistent, dont work yet. If you can only film the tandems if they fall at a certain speed range, dont film them. etc.

Ok, done venting

[hackish 8]

No, I'm working to the point where I can fly camera for a tandem. I tried flying the camera with 2 other experienced jumpers on a 3 way and it all went to shit which is why I questioned if there was a better way to exit or if it just takes practise.

In Canada we have no BSR saying you need 500 jumps to fly video near a TM.

Mods, please delete or move to an appropriate forum if this isn't video related enough.

[DSE 3]

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In Canada we have no BSR saying you need 500 jumps to fly video near a TM.

.

it's not a BSR, it's a manufacturer requirement.

Per your PIM:
Prior to filming a skydive, a jumper should have:
• a “C” CoP
• very good relative work skills
• good diving and floater tracking skills
• good canopy skills

Perhaps I have this incorrect, but doesn't a C CoP require 200 jumps?
Here's the thing, Michael...when a tandem skydive goes to shit, it goes to shit REALLY fast. Are you truly ready to risk an unsuspecting person's safety this early? Especially when you've obviously got some exiting issues? Tandems don't fly like solo skydivers. If you're gonna learn to fly with tandems;
Exit with your back to the side, or back to the tail to get started. Leave early. Backfly it til they come down to you. Are you comfortable knowing you control all your axis so you don't float or backtrack into them?
Maybe learn to follow them first, before learning to lead them?
Based on your posts in other forums, you're gonna do whatever the hell you want, so at least be smart about it. It's not just your safety at risk, it's the safety of two others, too.

[PhreeZone 15]

Things going to shit on RW jumps are a better learning chance then when things go right. How are you framing the jumpers? Are you able to safely keep up with a funneling formation? Can you keep it framed as the formation drifts? Are you aware of where the people are with out looking around? Do you watch the altitude with out looking at your altimeter? These are skills that are critical to learn before jumping with any type of student from a video point of view. Learn to backfly, its a skill that can save a shot if you get low and can't get back up right away. To learn a good back fly it took me an hour in the tunnel and 40-50 jumps and that is just the bare needed to not screw it up.

IF you are jumping wings or anything else take a few dozen solos to learn them. They require learning all new skills to correctly use them and not knowing their range can have you pop up into your subject or could introduce a ton of other issues also like not being able to remove the swoop cords and there for nt being able to reach your toggles or flare all the way.

It is not USPA that has the 500 jumps it is the manufacturers that sets that limit. Look up the owners manuals on them, it is specified in there next to the rigging information, its under the limits for use age of the gear. Per your PIM all TM's must follow manufacturer instructions for tandem jumps. The PIM also recommends anyone wanting to jump camera have ther COP C level.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[faulknerwn 37]

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Here's the thing, Michael...when a tandem skydive goes to shit, it goes to shit REALLY fast. Are you truly ready to risk an unsuspecting person's safety this early? Especially when you've obviously got some exiting issues?

In the past few weeks, various tandem things I have seen. We jump exclusively 182's here, and I've got a little over 5000 jumps (probably close to a thousand videos and a couple thousand RW jumps)

1. Had a tandem COMPLETELY freak out and kept alternating between belly to earth and touching their toes - literally! It took the tandem master a while to get stable enough to throw the drogue and the second I got near him I was giving him the AFF pull signal cuz I've never seen a worse tandem student.

2. I've got several hundred videos of this particular TM - I'm comfortable with his exit. On this jump - I think its because the student didn't keep their feet on the step but let them float, when they launched instead of presenting to the relative wind and us being relative like usual, he dropped like a rock, and I'm in his burble getting off as fast as I possibly can while hoping he doesn't throw the drogue yet.

3. I've got some VERY different-sized tandem masters here. There are at least 3 completely different styles of exits. Some drop like bowling balls and some float. They are very different styles and you have to be comfortable with very different fall-rates.

And then the fall rates can change QUITE dramatically pre-drogue versus post-drogue and you have to be prepared to react quickly...
And then there are the students that drop their knees causing nice back-slides..

Videos of a tandem are a challenge every time. They're never the same twice. I'll see students in such funky body positions that the instructor can't stop a turn and I'll be having to orbit them in a circular side-slide the whole time. You've got to have quite a bit of RW skills to be able to pull it off..

[chrismgtis 0]

As everyone is saying, 200 jumps+ before you start flying camera.

Trust me man. I am aching myself to do this very thing, but I'm at 105 jumps right now. I even recently purchased an Optik camera helmet, but I wanted an open face anyway so I figured I could buy it now, use it later for camera.

It sucks that you have to wait, but the recommendations aren't for nothing and personally...I'm thinking it's not only 200 jumps I've got to wait for, I have to be CURRENT at any time that I fly a camera. Whether I have 50 jumps with a camera, if I haven't jumped in 2 weeks... probably not a good idea?

I'm thinking a Cessna makes this more true as opposed to an aircraft like the Otter's I've been jumping 90% of the time... mainly due to the more complicated exit.

Your ability to fly camera and get the shots reliably is probably going to depend most if not all on your ability to fly yourself, adjust fall rate, etc... Most people get 50+ jumps and start sit flying. I'm not touching it. I can't do a 50 way and be confident I'll not screw it up, so what business do I have doing sit fly? If I'm thinking sit flying doesn't make sense... camera... probably not either.

Oh by the way, I'll you, wind tunnels are a god send when it comes to things like this. If you want to eventually be a great camera flyer (ie., fly around a student 360 degrees while also keeping your eye on the student) then that's something you could learn in a tunnel. Tunnels are perfect for perfecting that sort of thing.

Also, adding another point. I think someone made this point, but jumping into tandem camera work is a bad idea. I wouldn't even think about that myself unless I had a D license, at least 200 jumps with camera while flying reliably with other jumpers, etc. Once you do start flying camera, practice with another person and do it a lot. Then maybe graduate to filming four ways for people. I'm sure everyone would love to have you do this once your able. It's free video for them, if you let them get a copy and even if you don't, they can critique their dive after you land.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[hackish 8]

I've only ever done one jump with a camera on my head and it obviously threw a monkey wrench into what I was used to. Obviously why it was done in a 3 way and that's why I seek more info on camera skills.

Jumping with a TM and passenger throws a whole different fall rate challenge. I've been used to adjusting a few mph in fall rate jumping with others but with a small passenger punched out as big as I can I was barely able to match fall rates at 100mph. Next time I'm arched and small like a mofo and just able to match rates at 138mph. Just to be clear I'm not in close proximity to them while flying either.

I see matching the extremely different fall rates as a necessary skill before learning much else. In all my RW jumps I've never seen more than a +/- 5mph fall rate or so - don't always look at the alti's recorded speeds after.

To answer most of your questions...
No experience with the camera on my head so hard to say how I'm "framing them".

Safely keep with a funnel, yes, usually within 10-20 feet.

Knowing about the people around me - yes but I'm usually only with a 2-3 way so it's not too much of a challenge.

Altitude, primary eyes cross-checking against alti and internal timeclock with an audible as a backup. I like to break off at 5 to pull at 3.5-4 anyway.

I've been learning to backfly whenever possible but it's not safe enough to do around others yet. Spent some time working on it in the tunnel. I'll prolly spend a few more hours in the tunnel when they open the one in Montreal.

I have about 70-80 jumps on a hand-me-down suit with swoop cords but they don't seem to get in the way as you describe. I usually unhook them when I'm loosening the chest strap and collapsing the slider.

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Things going to shit on RW jumps are a better learning chance then when things go right. How are you framing the jumpers? Are you able to safely keep up with a funneling formation? Can you keep it framed as the formation drifts? Are you aware of where the people are with out looking around? Do you watch the altitude with out looking at your altimeter? These are skills that are critical to learn before jumping with any type of student from a video point of view. Learn to backfly, its a skill that can save a shot if you get low and can't get back up right away. To learn a good back fly it took me an hour in the tunnel and 40-50 jumps and that is just the bare needed to not screw it up.

IF you are jumping wings or anything else take a few dozen solos to learn them. They require learning all new skills to correctly use them and not knowing their range can have you pop up into your subject or could introduce a ton of other issues also like not being able to remove the swoop cords and there for nt being able to reach your toggles or flare all the way.

[kefran 0]

i begun to fly with a camera at around 60 jumps, and i begun filming tandems at around 250 when i didn't have to think of my flying to be (and stay) relative and safe to the tandem. added the still camera at around 350.

regarding your question about back flying exits it sounds to me like you didn't let go both hands off the strut at the same time, though initiating a lateral rotation of your body.

I tried a lot of times to suspend myself under the strut, but wasn't satisfied with the pictures i got back (the "I" is important here as the customers where totally satisfied with those videos ...) now when i have to film a tandem from a C182 what i do for the exit is really easy : i stay on the footstep (at the very end of it) and just let go a fraction before the tandem.

here is a link to a promo video i did where you'll see one C182 exit :
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-8523386513675432650

so Michael : be happy that we are in Canada and keep on training ;)

to DSE : our PIMs are also telling us to have a C before learning sitfly and to wear a bubble arms jumpsuit to do so ... I guess they deserve some kind of "refresh" actually ...

--------------------------------------------------
I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution !

[DSE 3]

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so Michael : be happy that we are in Canada and keep on training ;)

to DSL E fixed it for ya : our PIMs are also telling us to have a C before learning sitfly and to wear a bubble arms jumpsuit to do so ... I guess they deserve some kind of "refresh" actually ...

I don't disagree your PIM should be updated, I spent quite a little time reading it last night. Ancient and some of it quite silly in terms of recommendations.
That doesn't change the value in the recommended experience levels. Recommended experience levels have their foundations in the blood of students, camera flyers, instructors, test pilots, designers, team members, competitors, and plain ole' fun jumpers. Those numbers aren't random.
Tunnel time can help, yet it's only one small part of the learning process. For example, I know a tunnel rat who can fly like you wouldn't believe. He nearly killed a friend of mine under canopy. He doesn't hve canopy skills to match his freefly skills. Can't get canopy skills in a tunnel. He also has almost no heads-up skills. Doesn't recognize when things are going bad.

I thought (like everyone else here probably did) that 100 jumps was enough to put a cam on my head, particularly after I didn't do the normal "OK, I'm off student status so I'm gonna f*** around learning to freefly." I started working in the tunnel with Ed Dickenson, getting personal training from Norman Kent, Ed, local camera guys, spent time with McGowan...so by the time I put a camera helmet on, if anyone was ready...it was me. And I wasn't ready. And they told me I wasn't ready, even though I'd been flying those slots for 90 jumps without a camera, only the helmet. My first paid tandem was nearly 100 jumps later.

The PIM may need change from some of the specific silliness it currently has in it, but jump numbers and license requirements aren't much different than ours, and I feel ours are pretty spot-on.
Michael has demonstrated in the past, that he'll do whatever, whenever. Visit the Gear/Rigging forum and follow his downsize progression went in spite of most everyone telling him not to do it. Or any number of threads where he's made authoritive statements in blank ignorance and argued with those more experienced.
He'll probably be "all right."
In skipping recommended steps, he's dumber and less experienced than others who experienced the process as it's been figured out over the past 50 years. Cutting corners always means you're missing part of the picture. Saying "I have been doing this for a year...." or whatever doesn't mean jack shit. You can probably run across the freeway blindfolded a few times without getting hit too.
I often fly a 135 canopy when I go to Florida. At my skill level, it's no big deal. But flying that same canopy at my home DZ is stupid for me right now....because I don't have enough time on the next size up, and at 4500 feet MSL, it's a silly risk. I'll get there soon enough. Swooping isn't my primary objective, so not being super current in the discipline dulls my edge significantly. Why take the risk?

When you've got a tandem in front of you, unless you're an INCREDIBLY heads-up person, 100 jumps isn't anywhere near enough to be that close to an innocent student, IMO.

Learning to fly the slot...that's one thing. Learning to fly the slot with a student there? Quite another.
Based on Michael's other posts I for one, would be concerned about being in the air with him. It's not a skills thing, it's an attitude thing. We have one guy at our DZ who consistently cuts people off at landing by doing a 90 across the landing area. He's been talked to, signed a paper saying he won't do it anymore, but he continues to do it. Two of us won't fly with him anymore. Eventually, he's gonna kill or hurt someone badly. He's one of the most skilled skydivers I've ever seen, anywhere. And I've been around the very best in this biz... Danny Page was damn good, so were many others you'll find in the Incidents forum or Fatality database.

I watched a horses ass remove all his nylon and rig on a CASA the other day, re-rigging all the way up to 12k when the LO forced him to go to the front of the plane and stand down. The guy has over 2K jumps...very experienced, and is a complete moron. His attitude tells me he doesn't care about my safety nor yours.

There is always another skydive, always another opportunity. There is plenty of time to learn, plenty of time to fully understand what is going on up there. At 100, 200 whatever jumps, to quote Scott Campos "you don't yet know what you don't know." The one realization I had at 1K jumps was "I now know what I don't know. Now it's time to learn." I learned to crawl, walk, and save my life without killing others in 1000 skydives. I hope to learn to fly in the next 1000.
>rant off

[pchapman 262]

I'm mainly going to review the Canadian rules, without trying to teach video body positions which takes a lot of time to explain in print.

(I know Hackish tends to read up on things, but this is for the thread in general.)

Some of the US jumpers here are well informed on the Canadian PIMs, the CSPA rules.

While some more general parts of the PIMs are quite old and need updating (as Kefran alluded to), the first section with the basic safety rules & recommendations is updated every 2 years.

To fly camera under CSPA rules one does indeed need a C licence, which requires a minimum of 200 jumps. The C licence rules are in the "Technical Recommendations", but they are stated to be mandatory.

I would bet that DZs typically try to follow this rule, especially for working jumps.

The BSRs do say that all recommendations of tandem manufacturers must be followed. But that doesn't always happen -- e.g. a manufacturer might recommend altimeters for tandem but many DZ's don't do it that way. It also technically would mean if one is jumping UPT gear, camera flyers would have to have all those restrictive requirements met:

Camera flyer is himself a Tandem Instructor or AFF jumpmaster, has 500 RW jumps, 100 RW jumps in the last year, and 100 camera jumps.

Which isn't going to happen; at least I've never seen anyone want to enforce those strict limits.

I generally tend to see or like to see a progression of:

- no cameras before 200 jumps
- plenty of play with the camera on other types of jumps
- showing the DZ that one is known for having good safety skills and RW skills
(not competitive RW, but any sort of playing-well-with-others-in-the-sky type of RW)
- a few jumps jumping with a tandem, to get used to how they behave in exit and in freefall, with no camera to act as a distraction
- a few practice videos of a tandem that are reviewed by management
... before doing paid tandem video.

[stratostar 5]

Well yea but DUUUUDE I been doing this for a year and one time a camera flying camp.......

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[pattersd 0]

Spot you can rant anytime, your post is thoughtful, addresses the issues and leaves emotions out of it. too bad none of the people who need to listen will realize it is directed at them.

[davelepka 4]

What's interesting is that you seem to have an (although somewhat misguided) answer for every question that has been posed to you, but the fact remains that you started this thread with a question about your inability to consistantly exit stable from a 182.

Does that mean anything to you?



Can you see how you're putting the cart before the horse here?

How about the fact that the average jump numbers of the people telling you this is a bad idea is upwards of 2000, with a couple in excess of 5000. Does that register at all with you?

You do realize the consequences for being wrong on this case, don't you? If it turns you that the people who have been jumping longer than you have been jerking off are correct, the outcome will mean injury or death to yourself and possiblly others, right?

Is that a chance you're willing to take?

Do you also realize that if you follow the advice you're given, you'll be a stronger, more awesome flyer sooner than later? And when you do strap on a camera, you be a stronger, more awesome camera flyer sonner than later?

Hello? Anything?

[Chris_K 0]

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In Canada we have no BSR saying you need 500 jumps to fly video near a TM.reply]

Check out the CSPA web site, you need a C CoP minimum to fly camera WITH A TANDEM. You can fly before that, just not with tandems.

The only exception to that rule is if the DZO has special written permission from CSPA.

Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

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[hackish 8]

I figured at some point you'd still be ragging on me for going down to a sabre2-170. In some regions this is considered an accident waiting to happen. In some it is fairly normal and nothing to raise an eyebrow at.

The downsize was done with the nod from all the DZO's and instructors despite the fact some people online felt I'd kill myself. 100+ jumps on the 170 and I am still enjoying and learning with it. I just view it as a comfortable progression. Before I tried it I worried it was too quick, when I tried it I felt it was OK but still worried because of what people here said. Now I scratch my head and wonder if it was really out of line.

In a similar fashion I'm interested in training to do video. I was told that I should spend time learning to fly with a tandem and learn to do video with fun jumps. Except on the exit I'm never within 50' of the tandem and this rings no warning bells with me or anyone else involved.

I appreciate any howto advice here and that's all I'm really asking or looking for. I'll look to the experience of those I've jumped with and those who know me in person to give safety advice.

-Michael

[PharmerPhil 0]

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Except on the exit I'm never within 50' of the tandem and this rings no warning bells with me or anyone else involved.

And therein lies just ONE problem. You can't fly such that you are within a logical distance to the subject (there is no artistic reason to be 50 feet away IMHO). To not have these flying skills is bad enough. Adding a camera is worse, and adding a student is negligent.

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I appreciate any howto advice here and that's all I'm really asking or looking for.

You have been given the "howto (sic) advice." And you have chosen to not listen to it. You have heard from others with vast experience (even some who made the same mistake you are making, and now have more experience) and you have chosen to ignore the advice. WTF? What are you really looking for? Others with lot more skill and knowledge to tell you that they are wrong and you are right, and you should continue on your chosen path?

I can understand people not looking for advice (hell, we're skydivers, who can tell us...). But YOU asked a question of the forum, and you have chosen to not accept the answers you have been given (until they are what you already want to hear). If you really want to be this selective in the advice that YOU have asked for, why don't you just select to not waste people's time and don't ask for advice in the first place.

FWIW, I am not usually one of those who immediately attacks someone for starting camera too early. I let others do that, and usually the questioner is at least open to the suggestion (and at worse proceeds with caution). But with less than 100 jumps, jumping not only camera but with students too, and then not having the sense to pay any heed to the advice of those with more experience, is just moronic.

Peace out.

[DSE 3]

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I figured at some point you'd still be ragging on me for going down to a sabre2-170. In some regions this is considered an accident waiting to happen.

No, I'm ragging on how you went down to a 150... Glad to hear you're back up to a 170. Update your jump numbers if you don't want folks making assumptions.

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I appreciate any howto advice here and that's all I'm really asking or looking for. I'll look to the experience of those I've jumped with and those who know me in person to give safety advice.

-Michael

Then why not trust those "who know you in person" to teach you to fly the exit from a Cessna?
Like I mentioned earlier, you're gonna do whatever you want. With all but one post (from a low-number jumper) telling you you're making dangerous mistakes, you focus on defensive. It would be callous of me to point out other skydivers who have had the same attitude, who are now found only in the Blue Skies and Incidents forum. There are a LOT of them.
No one wants to simply say "You can't do this." No one wants to prevent you from growing. But we do have a responsibility to ourselves, to the sport, and to the tandem students who you are endangering without them having any say in the matter.
Enthusiasm is wonderful, Michael. It's terrific that you're motivated. But learn how to walk before trying to run. Running with scissors in the mall is no less irresponsible than flying with tandems at your skill and experience level.

Learn to fly the exit WITHOUT the tandem there. Get to where you can exit facing forwards, backwards, sideways without the tandem in the door. Learn all of these exit methods while shooting friends doing relative work. Yeah..tough at a 182 dropzone. Sucks that you might have to travel, but there it is. Just because you jump at a small DZ doesn't mean you have the right to endanger the lives of others.

Maybe, just maybe, folks have YOUR best interests at heart. In this particular case, we all have the best interests of the tandem students, tandem instructors, and the sport at heart.
Any TI that is allowing you to jump with him is taking unnecessary risks that should not be taken with the life of a student. That's aside from the rules of both the CSPA and the tandem manufacturer.

Look at how folks are chiding you in other forums. Is it that everyone else is stupid and you're not?

[davelepka 4]

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Learn to fly the exit WITHOUT the tandem there. Get to where you can exit facing forwards, backwards, sideways without the tandem in the door. Learn all of these exit methods while shooting friends doing relative work. Yeah..tough at a 182 dropzone. Sucks that you might have to travel, but there it is.

This is where I'll disagree with you. I came up at a non-turbine DZ, and we did a healthy staic line business. Before I did video, I was a packer and could always find time to jump first thing in the morning.

The first loads to fly were the in the 182 to 3500 ft with the return static line students working on their practice pulls. I'd fit in two or three hop n pops each morning, and would practice exiting in different positions on each one. I'd go up with a plan, then dive the plan.

It made no difference that the skydive was only 10 seconds long. I flew the exit, and down the hill in the sub-terminal air. After that I worked on canopy control.

You can do a lot with a little if you put your mind to it.

[pchapman 262]

Quote

Check out the CSPA web site, you need a C CoP minimum to fly camera WITH A TANDEM. You can fly before that, just not with tandems.

Chris:

a) While that is interesting about the web site, how the heck is that supposed to be official if it isn't in the PIMs? (And where do I find that info? I can't find it.)

b) For years the requirement was a C CoP to fly any sort of video. In the latest 2008 PIM 1, they actually changed it to a B CoP. Incredible, they actually made something easier instead of harder to do. This was where I was in error; I hadn't realized they had relaxed the restrictions.