rsl/skyhook disconnect for camera jumps?

[angryelf 0]

Where I work we are fortunate enough to have matching Vector III's w/ Skyhooks. When the rigs are used on camera jumps-the snap shackle is disconnected, disabling the Skyhook. The protocol for this was established earlier when Vector II's w/ standard RSL's were used. My question is this: Is there as high a probability of camera helmet entanglement (which is the reason for the disconnection) with the Skyhook system as there is with a standard RSL? Thoughts on this? Please provide logical reasoning for or against RSL use with cameras, I would like to avoid opinions based on preference...

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[mrwrong 0]

I’m not sure regarding this so please step in and correct me if I’m wrong on this.

But the explanation I have got when asking around among my fellow skydivers it just don’t matter if you have SkyHook or a standard RSL, the danger of entanglement will always be there BEFORE the RSL/SkyHook is put to the use.

SH / RSL are just different methods of assisting the reserve out of the container.

“The sum of intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing.” - George Bernard Shaw
He who dies with the most toys, wins.....
dudeist skydiver # 19515
Buy quality and cry once!

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

s there as high a probability of camera helmet entanglement (which is the reason for the disconnection) with the Skyhook system as there is with a standard RSL?

The entanglement people worry about is between the main and the camera helmet, so it has nothing to do with the RSL. It is all about snag points on the camera helmet. I jumped with my skyhook connected for a long time... until I added a ringsight. That's when I decided, based on other peoples' incidents, that I had increased my probability of an entanglement enough to disconnect my skyhook/RSL.

Dave

[Laszloimage 0]

There's a couple of reasons to disconnect the RSL for camera jumps. One scenerio is the main canopy entanglment with the camera gear , the other one is a spinning malfunction. Either case the RSL could cause more problem deploying the reserve before getting relatively stable.
The skyhook is a lot faster system, the released main ( in case of a malfunction) becomes the reserve pilot chute. It pulls the reserve free bag all the way out until it starts to inflate.
So the skyhook theoricaly could be used for camera jumps.
Personally I pull high (I'm a dirty high puller) carry two hook knives and have an AAD. ...and of course pack for myself.
-Laszlo-

[PharmerPhil 0]

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One scenerio is the main canopy entanglment (sic) with the camera gear , the other one is a spinning malfunction.

FWIW, I had a very respected I/E, S&TA and Course Director dispute this second reason. He claims that there has never been a documented case of a spinning-mal/RSL combination getting a jumper hurt or causing a reserve malfunction (causing reserve line twists yes, but these have never resulted in an injury). Of course, he also pointed out how many injuries and fatalities have been caused by late reserve deployments.

His point was to challenge those who don't use an RSL (this was pre-Skyhook). When I told him my reasons for not using an RSL (the need to clear a possible helmet entanglement before reserve deployment), he thought that was the only legit reason.

[Laszloimage 0]

Phil,
Actually I've seen video when the guy had to shake off from his hand the reserve lines and the free bag because of the RSL after a spinning mal....
Lot of close calls (...even on tandems).
I gues the no fatalaty is from RSL is because most of the camera people (defenitelly the ones with small canopies) just don't use it.
My last two cut aways which both were from spiunning mal under highly loaded parachutes I was very happy not to have an RSL.
Yes I highly recommend the use of RSL for students, tandems (even if I've seen trouble from it...) and any jumpers without camera gear and high performance canopies.
-Laszlo-

[phantomII 36]

For someone who has 100 videojumps, you seem to have very little understanding for the risks involved with it and/or how your system works.

[VerticalRush 0]

I want time to cut away my cameras in the case of an entanglement with my cams. I've completely incorporated the helmet release in my EPs. I think the delay from main cut away to reserve deployment is the time to do that. Less tension, natural flow of procedures. I very strongly agree that an RSL is a great safety feature, especially with the advent of the Skyhook. But for me, almost all camera jumps on my sport rigs, the RSL is out. I spent much time contemplating this as a decision for me and my abilities as a skydiver.

[Laszloimage 0]

***FWIW, I had a very respected I/E, S&TA and Course Director dispute this second reason. He claims that there has never been a documented case of a spinning-mal/RSL combination getting a jumper hurt or causing a reserve malfunction (causing reserve line twists yes, but these have never resulted in an injury).

I just red the new Parachutist (Feb. 2009) incident reports. ...and I remembered this thread. Now there's a documented fafality caused by an RSL. Also see this bulletin by UPT: http://www.uspa.org/USPAMembers/Safety/TheUSPAProfessional/tabid/78/ctl/Detail/mid/1451/xmid/5774/xmfid/42/Default.aspx 


I still say students should have RSL or Sky Hook. And I recommend them for "average" skydivers as well.

I definitelly don't recommend  them for high performance canopies, CReW, and camera work.

Pull HIGHER, more time to deal with the problem, have an AAD as last chance.

			
		

[The111 1]

Quote

For someone who has 100 videojumps, you seem to have very little understanding for the risks involved with it and/or how your system works.

Harsh, but true.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[velocityphoto 0]

I tend to agree with Lazlo here.
But i think my biggest fear is the reserve getting entangled with my helmet. Not so much the main.
Because i'm stable when i deploy the main. But anything can happen after cut away from a highly loaded canopy thats spinning violently !
My last O'mally wasn't to bad though. :)
But there will be others, you can count on it!

If your jump numbers are correct i think you need to wait awhile before strapping on a camera. You'll be glad you did when the malfunction happens and your ready for it completely. And not questioning your ability while your still a newbie.
Blue skies and black panties Lonnie

A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

[ozzy13 0]

someone fix this tread . tried of going back and forth

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[gearless_chris 1]

Quote

***FWIW, I had a very respected I/E, S&TA and Course Director dispute this second reason. He claims that there has never been a documented case of a spinning-mal/RSL combination getting a jumper hurt or causing a reserve malfunction (causing reserve line twists yes, but these have never resulted in an injury).

I just red the new Parachutist (Feb. 2009) incident reports. ...and I remembered this thread. Now there's a documented fafality caused by an RSL. Also see this bulletin by UPT: http://www.uspa.org/USPAMembers/Safety/TheUSPAProfessional/tabid/78/ctl/Detail/mid/1451/xmid/5774/xmfid/42/Default.aspx 


We never found the reserve handle to PROVE it was a RSL deployment. It is possible that that he pulled the handles at the same time, or even in the wrong order. I assume they were able to prove that the RSL was hooked up at the time, and thus the ruling that the RSL deployed the reserve.


How did this thread end up being twice as wide as my monitor?
"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.


My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

			
		

• Quote

[idrankwhat 0]

Quote

***FWIW, I had a very respected I/E, S&TA and Course Director dispute this second reason. He claims that there has never been a documented case of a spinning-mal/RSL combination getting a jumper hurt or causing a reserve malfunction (causing reserve line twists yes, but these have never resulted in an injury).

I just red the new Parachutist (Feb. 2009) incident reports. ...and I remembered this thread. Now there's a documented fafality caused by an RSL. Also see this bulletin by UPT: http://www.uspa.org/USPAMembers/Safety/TheUSPAProfessional/tabid/78/ctl/Detail/mid/1451/xmid/5774/xmfid/42/Default.aspx 

I'm reluctant to post anything given my experience, usually content to stalk this forum WRT safety issues. However after following the above link, then diverting to the accident reports I found this one. No RSL, no AAD. Either one would have likely changed the outcome.
I'll check Parachutist when I get home to read the report that you're referring to.


P.S. Anyone know how to narrow the text on this thread? I've got a 22" widescreen and I still can't read without scrolling back and forth.
P.P.S Ok, what's the deal with the font now?

[Laszloimage 0]

Yes, it was one of those more freak accidents...
He should have used his HOOK KNIFE to cut that steereing line above that guide ring. I carry two hook knives since I have to use it once too. (differen scenario though) Also (at least in my eyes since I use the exact same gear set up) 3,500 feet deployment altitude is a bit low if you have camera wings/camera gear/X-braced canopy.
My hard deck is 4K ut I try to pull even earlier.
...and no packer touches my stuff.