Samsung SC-HMX20C HD Camcorder

[PWScottIV 0]

So I'm in the market for an HD Camcorder and I've been doing quite a bit of research. I was seriously considering the Cannon Vixia HF10, but I guess Canon's OIS doesn't work so hot while skydiving even when it's disabled. I was looking at the Sony HDR-SR12, but the two glaring negatives with that camera are the fixed 60i video format (no progressive mode) and I'd have to buy and record on Sony's fuked-up proprietary "Memory Stick Pro Duo" memory that is both small (4gb max) and much more expensive than other market offerings (Sandisk is releasing 32GB Class-4 MiniSD memory soon).
The Samsung SC-HMX20C is slated for release in May and I think it does everything I want it to. I've included the specs below.

Image Sensor: 1/1.8" (.556") CMOS
Video Format: 1920x1080 30p
Total Pixels: Approx. 6.4 Megapixels
Effective Still Image Pixels: 3264 X 2448 Pixel Photo Res (8MP)
Maximum recording time: (8GB Internal and SDHC)
Optical Zoom: 10x
Max Shutter Speed: 300fps for 10sec
LCD Screen: 2.7" Widescreen LCD
Recording Media: 8GB Internal and Removable 32GB+ SD/SDHC
Min Illumination: 1lux
Image Stabilization: Electronic
Weight:10.9oz
Simultaneous video/still image capture: Yes

It uses flash memory, shoots in 30p, EIS instead of OIS, and it will capture still images while simultaneously filming video. The CCD is absolutely HUGE compared to pretty much any other Prosumer Camcorder on the market, so low light shooting should produce much better results than most. It's lighter and smaller than anything in it's class. And it has a cool super-high-rate video setting that shoots at 300fps for 10 sec if you want to slow down fast moving subjects.

Here's a link to a review:http://gizmodo.com/341079/samsung-sc+hmx20c-hd-camcorder-shoots-1080p-onto-flash-memory
Here's a video review:http://www.cnettv.com/9742-1_53-31914.html

Gravity Waits for No One.

[DSE 3]

A search of the forum would have provided you with answers related to this camera (based entirely on my opinion).
The CMOS sensor is huge because it has to be given the quality they choose to buy. It's mostly plastic, hence the lightweight.
It's got no external control.
Very flimsy-feeling.
Slow shutter is more or less useless at quarter rez (Sony has been doing this for 3 years).
I tossed one around at CES, wasn't any more impressed than I was with the previous model.
Many have come before both of us in this sport, and learned expensive lessons about buying cheap. The DGI is the only cheapie I'd consider, given that it's a "disposable" video camera at 300.00 (it's HD, AVC, etc too)

[PWScottIV 0]

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A search of the forum would have provided you with answers related to this camera (based entirely on my opinion).
The CMOS sensor is huge because it has to be given the quality they choose to buy. It's mostly plastic, hence the lightweight.
It's got no external control.
Very flimsy-feeling.
Slow shutter is more or less useless at quarter rez (Sony has been doing this for 3 years).
I tossed one around at CES, wasn't any more impressed than I was with the previous model.
Many have come before both of us in this sport, and learned expensive lessons about buying cheap. The DGI is the only cheapie I'd consider, given that it's a "disposable" video camera at 300.00 (it's HD, AVC, etc too)

I did search the forum, but no one has ever mentioned this model.
How do you know that it's only $300? I'm pretty confident that they haven't published pricing on this model yet. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt they can produce an HD camera for anywhere near that cheap.

So you know for sure that it won't have a remote?

What are you talking about with respect to the video sensor? Do you know that the sensor is apparently actually made by Sony?

Cost isn't an issue for me, I'll gladly spend what it takes to get the camera that fits my requirements... unfortunately, it seems that most of the current market offerings don't.

I MUST have, at a minimum, 30p. And yes, I have a decent amount of time shooting in 24p, 30p, and 60i... I have a dvx100b, so I know the differences. Most of the current Sony offerings only have 60i, and I'm not ok with that.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[DSE 3]

_Carefully_ re-read my post.

While the specific model of the camera was not discussed, this thread does mention, and link to images of the Samsung.

[beowulf 1]

Why is 30p so important to you? I don't think 30p is all that much better the 60i.

[PWScottIV 0]

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_Carefully_ re-read my post.

While the specific model of the camera was not discussed, this thread does mention, and link to images of the Samsung.

Come on... What are the chances that search terms would have a chance in hell to find that link?!

Gravity Waits for No One.

[DSE 3]

You missed the point.
I didn't say the Samsung was 300.00. I mentioned another AVCHD camcorder that is 300.00.
Who makes the sensor doesn't matter much. You think Sony is putting in their ClearVid™ sensors or Exmor DSP in this camcorder? Nope. Sony has a low-end OEM, just like Agilent and others. Sony also makes CMOS for cell phones and barcode scanners.

The HMX10 was a POS, and the 20 likely isn't any different. It didn't look nor feel any different when I was tossing it around at the CES show.
But...it's not my money being spent, so if you feel it's the right match for you, let us all know how it works out!

[PWScottIV 0]

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Why is 30p so important to you? I don't think 30p is all that much better the 60i.

When playing video on a computer screen (i.e. When you're watching video from a website), the frames are typically shown in "progressive" (as opposed to interlaced) format at 30fps (30p) That's why you (or youtube, myspace, etc) have to de-interlace your video to prevent jagged edges on fast moving subjects. I'm sure you've seen videos online where someone did not de-interlace the video... Anywhere there is fast motion, you will see the jagged lines from the next/prevoius frame. When you de-interlace video, you lose quality, because it blends those frames together... You never actually see one full clean frame of video, you're always seeing a blend of two frames. With 30p each frame is just an individual full image, just like if you took a picture. Therefore, if you shoot with 30p, you won't need to de-interlace or convert the video mode. You obviously still need to compress the video, but the final product will look much better than if you started out with an interlaced format. My primary method of distributing my videos is the internet, so choosing a camera that has a 30p mode is pretty important. I'd like to have the 24p and 60i modes available as well, but I would only shoot in those if I knew that I was going to primarily play the video somewhere other than the internet.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[PWScottIV 0]

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You missed the point.
I didn't say the Samsung was 300.00. I mentioned another AVCHD camcorder that is 300.00.
Who makes the sensor doesn't matter much. You think Sony is putting in their ClearVid™ sensors or Exmor DSP in this camcorder? Nope. Sony has a low-end OEM, just like Agilent and others. Sony also makes CMOS for cell phones and barcode scanners.

The HMX10 was a POS, and the 20 likely isn't any different. It didn't look nor feel any different when I was tossing it around at the CES show.
But...it's not my money being spent, so if you feel it's the right match for you, let us all know how it works out!

Well, I know you don't like 30p, but if you had around $2000 to spend on a video camera (to be used primarily for skydiving) that DID have a 30p mode, which one would it be?

Gravity Waits for No One.

[PWScottIV 0]

Quote

You missed the point.
I didn't say the Samsung was 300.00. I mentioned another AVCHD camcorder that is 300.00.
Who makes the sensor doesn't matter much. You think Sony is putting in their ClearVid™ sensors or Exmor DSP in this camcorder? Nope. Sony has a low-end OEM, just like Agilent and others. Sony also makes CMOS for cell phones and barcode scanners.

The HMX10 was a POS, and the 20 likely isn't any different. It didn't look nor feel any different when I was tossing it around at the CES show.
But...it's not my money being spent, so if you feel it's the right match for you, let us all know how it works out!

And also, what's the problem with AVCHD? (Besides the editing software/hardware issues that everyone's aware of)

Gravity Waits for No One.

[DSE 3]

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Well, I know you don't like 30p

I don't??
Where on earth did you get that idea? The *majority* of what we shoot is in 30p

Quote

And also, what's the problem with AVCHD? (Besides the editing software/hardware issues that everyone's aware of)

Did I suggest that there is a problem with AVCHD? For what it is, AVCHD is a very good format. It's the new DV.

[PWScottIV 0]

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I don't?? Where on earth did you get that idea? The *majority* of what we shoot is in 30p

Hmm, well, you pronounced that 30p is "useless" for skydiving...http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3152073;search_string=30p%20useless;#3152073
So that's a pretty good indication right there.

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Did I suggest that there is a problem with AVCHD? For what it is, AVCHD is a very good format. It's the new DV.

It sounded like it... You said you didn't like another AVCHD camera (and that's the only spec you noted for it), so that might lead one to believe that you didn't like it.

I'm not trying to say that the Samsung camera is good (as I haven't seen it personally yet), I was just asking if anyone else had and what their take on it was. So I still didn't get an answer about the best camera for me, considering I want to jump 30p...

Gravity Waits for No One.

[PWScottIV 0]

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Why is 30p so important to you? I don't think 30p is all that much better the 60i.

Probably best to take everything you read in the forums with a grain of salt. It's not a bad idea to verify the validity of a claim for yourself personally... Especially, before repeating it.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[mrwrong 0]

One really comes to think of Don Quixote written by Miguel de Cervantes

“The sum of intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing.” - George Bernard Shaw
He who dies with the most toys, wins.....
dudeist skydiver # 19515
Buy quality and cry once!

[PWScottIV 0]

Quote

One really comes to think of Don Quixote written by Miguel de Cervantes

Obviously what I said about taking things with a grain of salt fully applies to things I might say as well... I'm quite aware that I'm NOT an expert. However, I do know enough to be dangerous.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[beowulf 1]

Your only reasoning for using 30p is for publishing on the internet. I don't shoot any video with the sole intention of putting it on the internet. All my video is now in 1440 by 1080 60i. I still don't see enough advantage in 30p to make me go out of my way for it.

From the way you post you are obviously a video expert.

[jimmytavino 16]

sony...


once again...only louder... SONY..

for skydiving, at least...

plus, if your profile is accurate.......
you need lots more skydiving experience, before worrying about a video camera on your head.....LOTS more.

and....... try to be more receptive to the replies here. since many of the posts, are made by well knowledgable persons...
not necessarily me,,,but others...
jmy A 3914
D 12122
scr scs nscr 1817

[DSE 3]

Wiser words in this thread have never been spoken.

30p is a tool. Kinda like my camera wings are tools. I don't wear them on freefly camera dives, and I don't wear my wingsuit for tandem camera, either.

You ask which 30p camcorder I'd buy if the use was predominantly skydiving? My reply is "none of them." I prefer making informed decisions, I prefer using the correct tool for the job, and 30p on a skydive is absolutly the incorrect tool in my opinion.
HD to YouTube (or other internet forum) makes zero, absolutely zero difference when it's acquired using progressive or interlaced camera formats.
30p for high motion is a bad mistake.

Quote

You said you didn't like another AVCHD camera (and that's the only spec you noted for it), so that might lead one to believe that you didn't like it.

Specific camcorder + AVCHD (only format it shoots in) ="You don't like AVCHD?"
Are you under the impression that all AVCHD is equal? It's not.
You probably already knew 30p and high motion can trigger epilepsy? (so can 24p).

[PWScottIV 0]

Quote

Your only reasoning for using 30p is for publishing on the internet. I don't shoot any video with the sole intention of putting it on the internet. All my video is now in 1440 by 1080 60i. I still don't see enough advantage in 30p to make me go out of my way for it.

From the way you post you are obviously a video expert.

I just said in my last post that I'm definitely NOT an expert... I do know a few things though. So if you don't post your video to the internet, then where is the primary place that people see your videos? Do you master DVDs and then hand them out?

Gravity Waits for No One.

[PWScottIV 0]

Quote

Wiser words in this thread have never been spoken.

30p is a tool. Kinda like my camera wings are tools. I don't wear them on freefly camera dives, and I don't wear my wingsuit for tandem camera, either.

You ask which 30p camcorder I'd buy if the use was predominantly skydiving? My reply is "none of them." I prefer making informed decisions, I prefer using the correct tool for the job, and 30p on a skydive is absolutly the incorrect tool in my opinion.
HD to YouTube (or other internet forum) makes zero, absolutely zero difference when it's acquired using progressive or interlaced camera formats.
30p for high motion is a bad mistake.

Quote

You said you didn't like another AVCHD camera (and that's the only spec you noted for it), so that might lead one to believe that you didn't like it.

Specific camcorder + AVCHD (only format it shoots in) ="You don't like AVCHD?"
Are you under the impression that all AVCHD is equal? It's not.
You probably already knew 30p and high motion can trigger epilepsy? (so can 24p).

According the the the technical staff at brightcove.com, it DOES matter. And I have verified this for myself... When posting online, shooting fast moving subjects looks better with 30p than it does when shot with 60i. You do understand what happens when you shoot in 60i and then play it back online, right? It plays it back in 30p, whether you like it or not, that's how it works... If you shot in 60i and don't de-interlace it, then it looks like a complete pile of crap... If you de-interlace, then it doesn't look as bad, but not nearly as good as if you shot it in 30p in the first place. If you still think I'm wrong, then please tell me why.

With respect to AVCHD, I apparently misunderstood you.

Dude, honestly, when was the last time you heard of someone you know having an epileptic seizure from watching 30p or 24p... I'm sure it happens, but probably not nearly as many times as you've mentioned it in this forum. If it was such a big problem, then the camera manufactures would post warnings in the manuals saying that those modes are "dangerous"... It's really not the big problem that you're touting it to be.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[beowulf 1]

I have uploaded some video to Skydivingmovies.com and posted two videos to my skydivernetwork.ning.com page. Mostly I just master DVD's for my own enjoyment and for friends who are in the video. I am currently doing all my editing in HDV and then rendering them to whatever format I need. I am not very concerned about the quality of the video that is uploaded to the internet and much more concerned about the quality of my video when viewed from DVD.

When I consider what video camera to use for skydiving, I was mostly concerned with how reliable the camera is and the quality of the video is secondary. Most of my video is team video and the rest is just fun jumps. It would really suck to have my camera break down two weeks before Nationals.

Sony cameras are the most reliable cameras out there. Every video guy I have ever talked to says this and it has been proven true in my experience.

[PWScottIV 0]

Quote

sony...


once again...only louder... SONY..

for skydiving, at least...

plus, if your profile is accurate.......
you need lots more skydiving experience, before worrying about a video camera on your head.....LOTS more.

and....... try to be more receptive to the replies here. since many of the posts, are made by well knowledgable persons...
not necessarily me,,,but others...
jmy A 3914
D 12122
scr scs nscr 1817

It seems like some of the information being posted here is incorrect... I'm hearing conflicting messages from "experts" and I'd like to separate the facts from the fiction.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[PWScottIV 0]

Quote

I have uploaded some video to Skydivingmovies.com and posted two videos to my skydivernetwork.ning.com page. Mostly I just master DVD's for my own enjoyment and for friends who are in the video. I am currently doing all my editing in HDV and then rendering them to whatever format I need. I am not very concerned about the quality of the video that is uploaded to the internet and much more concerned about the quality of my video when viewed from DVD.

When I consider what video camera to use for skydiving, I was mostly concerned with how reliable the camera is and the quality of the video is secondary. Most of my video is team video and the rest is just fun jumps. It would really suck to have my camera break down two weeks before Nationals.

Sony cameras are the most reliable cameras out there. Every video guy I have ever talked to says this and it has been proven true in my experience.

I really wish that Sony used SDHC (non-proprietary) flash memory and offered a 30p mode... I would buy that camera in a heartbeat. They don't, so I'm sort of stuck.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[beowulf 1]

Do you really only have 96 jumps? If so you need to concentrate more on your skydiving then video. The quality of your video will pretty much line up with the quality of your flying. It won't matter if you are videoing in 30p or 60i. If you can't get the shot the 30p won't make it look any better.

[PhreeZone 15]

Go ask your question to the folks over at DVInfo. You will not find smarter people then there. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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